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Old 03-22-2006, 08:31 AM   #31
Earthscape
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Thanks for pointing out the incorrect link - I'll fix it tonight.

When I say testing, I'm referring to the reliability of the whole system when subjected to vibration, weather, electrical loads, etc., not about the actual current output of the components.

I can't take all the credit for figuring this stuff out, Electrosport was an immense help. They where the ones to suggest that the ESG950 would fit on the LC4. They provided what I consider excellent support. Top-notch company in my opinion.

As for the discrepancy in output, I do know their web site lists the ESG950 as having an output of 250 watts, but in my correspondence with their tech support during testing of the components, their tech said:

"When pushing max output of the ESG950 (25A@14.2Vdc = 350W) I found the KTM OEM regulator/rectifier unable to handle the power (should be about twice as much as stock). Output on the DC bus drops after a few minutes."

Hence my confusion over the actual output. I don't know if that max output is at 7,000 RPM or 18,000 RPM, which is why I have a follow-up question in to them about it. I don't know of any way I can measure the output myself since if my regulator is doing it's job, I'll only ever measure around 13.5 volts across the battery. Any extra current from the stator will be dissipated as heat. I would need a device that can generate a load and measure the voltage drop of the system as load increases (Fluke?).

As for the oil temp dipstick, the '97 through (I think) 2001 640 Adventures came with the older style Touratech IMO Tripmaster (bit harder to read, but more adjustable and displays more info at one time), which doesn't have a temperature gauge, so I don't have anything to compare to. That was really the reason I picked up the dipstick, to keep an eye on engine temp.

The skid plate was expensive - if I remember right it was about $550 back in 2000 (a bunch of us did a group buy direct from Germany). I think it was worth it. We had the option of 2 tool boxes or 1 tool box and 1 2-liter water tank. I went with the water tank. The one tool box is big enough to hold all the tools I need, and I added a drain valve on the back side of the lower part of the tank to attach a small hose to for easy access to the water. This way the valve is very well protected in case of a fall or large stick.





The skid plate itself is very thick and strong enough to stop just about anything.

My last mod (at least planned right now) is to fit a corbin LC4 seat. Should only require a few small modifications to fit, and the comfort difference is like night and day.

Earthscape screwed with this post 03-22-2006 at 06:25 PM
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Old 03-22-2006, 08:50 AM   #32
Flanny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
They didn't list the LC4 flywheel on their site; did you contact them in the past Flanny? If the pricing stays the same it would only run about another $150 to do the flywheel.

What is your take on their claim that a heavier flywheel makes the engine harder to stall and even pull harder in the bottom end - inertia I guess - without sacrificing top end. Back when I was moddifying my 75 RD350 there were folks who lightened flywheels (and balanced I bet) so the engine could rev higher (14,000rpm! ) but I never heard the claims that Trail Tech is making for a heavier one.

They don't make a new flywheel for the LC4, but I read on an older web-page of theirs (the page seems to be gone now) that they can retrofit and ballance stock flywheels too. You'd have to call them and confirm.

Yup, flywheel weight makes a big difference in the power delivery characteristics of a bike. The thing is, the LC4 already has a pretty heavy flywheel (that's one of the reasons why it is such a tractor)...I don't think it would need to be any heavier. The reason why heavier flywheels are a big deal these days is because many people like to convert motocross bikes to enduro use. Motocross machines tend to have ligh flywheels for snappier response. In the case of enduro use, a heavier flywheel makes power delivery less abrupt and makes the bike more manageable in the woods.

Cheers!
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Old 03-22-2006, 10:07 AM   #33
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthscape
...
As for the discrepancy in output, I do know their web site lists the ESG950 as having an output of 250 watts, but in my correspondence with their tech support during testing of the components, their tech said:

"When pushing max output of the ESG950 (25A@14.2Vdc = 350W) I found the KTM OEM regulator/rectifier unable to handle the power (should be about twice as much as stock). Output on the DC bus drops after a few minutes."

Hence my confusion over the actual output. I don't know if that max output is at 7,000 RPM or 18,000 RPM, which is why I have a follow-up question in to them about it. I don't know of any way I can measure the output myself since if my regulator is doing it's job, I'll only ever measure around 13.5 volts across the battery. Any extra current from the stator will be dissipated as heat. I would need a device that can generate a load and measure the voltage drop of the system as load increases (Fluke?).
....
Fluke is just a brand of electrical multimeter (tester), albeit a very good one. Ah the rectifier, yeah, obviously my electrical knowledge is not so good. Maybe you could test the output going into the rectifier?

Some electrical nerd will show up soon enough and straighten us out. probably just the relationship between amps, volts, and watts and the difference between the Raptor and the LC4 or some such sillyness - or Flanny could be correct about the flywheel magnets.
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Old 04-03-2006, 07:00 PM   #34
Earthscape
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Thumb Update

Went for a ride yesterday, and was out later than I had planned. When I headed home, temps were down into the 40s, so it was on with the vest and grips.

I'm happy to report that, in addition to the 70 watt headlight bulb, both the grips and vest got hot enough to start to burn my skin, which never even came close to happening with the stock stator, even with only one of the two on. (For the record, I was wearing Tour Master heavyweight leather gloves - bare hands would easily be burned to a crisp.) I was also quite surprised at how quickly the vest heated up after I first turned it on. I rode for over an hour with both on (vest on about 2/3 to 3/4 of max, grips on high), with the engine between 3k and 4k RPM about 95% of the time. I did have to stop at several long lights, and could feel the heat decrease slightly after idling. But once under way again, the heat quickly returned to where it was. When I got home, I connected the Battery Tender to see how much juice the battery would take (very un-scientific, I know), and I was glad to see that the light turned green after only a minute or two - which tells me the battery remained pretty much fully charged the entire ride.

So far I've put about 110 miles on the setup, and it seems to be rigorous enough to handle the LC4 vibration. That's not a lot of miles yet though, so I'll post more updates as the miles increase.

So, I would call the operation a success. The electrical system now has the power to keep me completely warm, and keep the road illuminated, both at the same time. I'm quite happy with the output.
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Old 04-03-2006, 09:49 PM   #35
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Glad to hear it! Good thoughts on your reservation to see how the new stuff holds up to the LC4 and the type of riding.
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:34 PM   #36
98rxcmi
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while we are on the subject of elec. output

I'm thinking aboout heated grips. It looks like Dual-Star has on that uses dual heat element. The grips that they sell at Lansing Cycle AKA Enduro Eng. uses a resistor to make the grips run in a "LOW" setting. It would seem like a better idea to use a dual element becuase, I think (this is where I may be wrong) wastes power in the "low" setting by turning the 12v power into heat at the resistor. At 29.99 it seems like a good price too.

Anyone use that brand?
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Old 04-05-2006, 09:24 PM   #37
KenR
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I just bought a set of the Dual Stars with the Heattroller control. Haven't had a chance to put them on the bike yet, but it looks like quality stuff.
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:23 PM   #38
Earthscape
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I originally had the type of heaters with the resistor, and recently switched to ones with dual elements instead of the resistor. Yes, the resistor does waste watts when the grips are on low. Another problem with that design is that you have to find a place to put the resistor so that it doesn't melt anything as it gets quite hot. The dual element version I got was Moose not Dual Star, but they are very similar, and work better than the resistor type.

On another note, I have another 150 miles on the new stator setup, and all is well with it. It's very nice to have warm hands and a hot vest on those cold morning rides into work.
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:17 PM   #39
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640 ADV Heated Grips

I have the Dual Star grip heaters with the Dual Star Rheostat-type controller, and it works fine, from the heat-to-the-hands standpoint. The little indicator light is very sano. However, something is strange. The indicator light blinks on and off when the grips are turned on, so I assumed that the variable controller is really a bi-metallic strip. Hi-tech. Unfortunately the controller light keeps blinking a little bit when the knob is turned off - leading me to think that the switch is leaking electricity. Other than that, it is much better than the exposed resister wire from the older type cheapie heated grips.

The best heated grip controller is the fancy heated vest actual rheostat controller - but it's $70+

Good luck. Pics available.

Jeff Rogers
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:25 PM   #40
Earthscape
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Just a quick update - weather for the past 6 weeks here has been ridiculous (what is gong on?). Anyway, 600 miles on the new stator and regulator now, and it's still going strong.
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Old 06-15-2006, 07:58 PM   #41
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthscape
Just a quick update - weather for the past 6 weeks here has been ridiculous (what is gong on?). Anyway, 600 miles on the new stator and regulator now, and it's still going strong.
That is good news. When you get a chance please review your how-to post for completenesss and flesh out any details that you feel could be of assistance. I am waiting for another person to do your mod before I list it as a How-To in the index. Thanks for the testing reports. Too bad there wasn't any before and after dyno tests or electrical testing (even just electrical testing now to see if the output is indeed higher than reported by KTM). Seat of the pants observations are allowed.
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:43 PM   #42
Pezz_gs
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Volts going back to the Battery?

I have a 97 640 Rallye which I have converted to electric start.
It runs the 660 Rallye 80mm crank. Runs really well. Starts first click of the button.

Only problem is it seems to kill the Battery?
I am running a Dynavolt 10amp/hr sealed battrey. The 660 Rallye runs a 5amp/hr battery. Over the last month, I have ridden a few times for 30 mins stop the bike and go to restart the bike and not enough to turn the motor over. This killed the 1st Battery.

The donor electric motor and harness came from a 97 LSE/EGS 620. Runs no Capacitor. So after much diagnosing and testing of the various companents it seemed to point to the lack of a Capacitor. The Rallye runs the recifier in the fairing bracket with a capacitor next to it. The LSE doesnt run one at all but the Recitifier is next to the battery under the seat. I installed one next to the rectifier on the Fairing Bracket. Fitted another battery. It started and all the outputs looked fine, both Volts and Amps.

I took it for a 130k's (90) mile test ride yesterday. I wired up an old BMW Volt meter I have and it was running well. Stopped the bike and then nothing. The volt meter shows nothing in the battery. Whilst the bike was running it was showing consistently 13 - 13.5Volts. Volt meter was wired to positive battery terminal. Negative to the frame. The headlights were on. It runs dual H4 globes pulling 110wts 55w each.

Well, from my thoughts this morning, It seems that the problem 'might' be
the battery. Its a sealed acid battery but the Alternator output might be too much and it fries them. When I bought it the guy emphasised that they dont like a 'fast charge' that some chargers put out. I am going to chat to a friend who owns a battery shop this morning and see.

It hold a charge when it sits in the shed and run for short times. When I go for longer it dies. I think putting the capacitor gives me enough oomph to keep the engine running. The LSE motor runs a different Kokusan ingnition system to most LC4's and has an exciter coil in the black box. Good move I reckon. The volt meter was well over 13V all during the ride. Its not a dead short, so it must be the battery. . . . . .

Question is I need to find the max power output that goes back into the battery for the LC4 Motor???
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Old 07-23-2006, 10:33 AM   #43
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Hi Earthscape...

I applaud your tenacity and desire to improve a marginal system... you've put quite a bit of effort into this project, and I'm sure there will be many that benefit by it. I also appreciate the "crash test dummy" role you've accepted in this experiment.

I was wondering if you've had an opportunity to do any AC and DC output measurements, and perhaps document the curves. I tried to read thru all you've done, and you may have already performed some measured tests that I missed... if I've overlooked this, forgive me.

I'd be interested in seeing what the idle outputs are, as well as output per 1000 rpm... to produce a kind of graph indicating the peak and average.
I also wonder what kind of temperatures are being generated at the battery and regulator/rectifier.

The reason I ask all this is because the system is, admittedly a combination of mismatched pieces and I wonder if they work well enough together to continue to function over the long term.
The miles you currently have are a good indication of sucess... but it's possible that, based on what you've written that you're right on the edge and repetitive excess related heat will have a cumulative effect on the system.

My intention is not to lean on you to obtain this information so much as it is an interest in confirming that none of the outputs are excessive sufficient to do damage. Over the years I've seen too many systems have catastrophic failures because the output exceeded the capabilities of the downstream components ability to shed heat.

This is in no way a put down to what you've done, more an attempt at a conformation that the combination of parts you've invested time and effort to make work will function for tens of thousands of miles within acceptable parameters.

Just because I ask, there is no expectation, responsibility or obligation on your part to conduct any testing... more a satisfaction of curiosity for me, and perhaps a demonstration of a margin of safety for those considering taking advantage of the information you've provided.

Thanks,
C
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Old 08-27-2006, 09:46 AM   #44
Earthscape
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Thumbs down

Well, I haven't been around for a while due to selling my house and moving. Also went on a 3200 mile trip on my 950, but that's a different story.

Anyway, just before I left, not so good news with the 640 upgrade. One morning I went to ride the bike in to work, and it wasn't running right. I suspected a dirty carb, but that wasn't it. I think the regulator/rectifier is "burning" out. The output of the stator may be too much for it. However, the bike is not in my posession at the moment (in storage while we are in between houses), so I can't do any definitive testing.

When the bike wasn't running right, I discovered the headlight bulb was burned out. I replaced the bulb, and the new one burned out within a few minutes. I was also able to briefly put a voltmeter across the battery with the bike running, and remember seeing unusually high voltage numbers (in the 14.X range). That's all I had time to do though.

It will be a few weeks before I can get the bike back and take some more readings on the regulator. If it is bad, I'll contact Electrosport since it is under warranty, and they did recommend it for use with the ESG950 stator. If they don't have a different, higher capacity model, I may have to return to the stock stator. That would be a bummer.

I'll update when I make any progress.
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Old 08-27-2006, 11:04 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthscape
Well, I haven't been around for a while due to selling my house and moving. Also went on a 3200 mile trip on my 950, but that's a different story.

Anyway, just before I left, not so good news with the 640 upgrade. One morning I went to ride the bike in to work, and it wasn't running right. I suspected a dirty carb, but that wasn't it. I think the regulator/rectifier is "burning" out. The output of the stator may be too much for it. However, the bike is not in my posession at the moment (in storage while we are in between houses), so I can't do any definitive testing.

When the bike wasn't running right, I discovered the headlight bulb was burned out. I replaced the bulb, and the new one burned out within a few minutes. I was also able to briefly put a voltmeter across the battery with the bike running, and remember seeing unusually high voltage numbers (in the 14.X range). That's all I had time to do though.

It will be a few weeks before I can get the bike back and take some more readings on the regulator. If it is bad, I'll contact Electrosport since it is under warranty, and they did recommend it for use with the ESG950 stator. If they don't have a different, higher capacity model, I may have to return to the stock stator. That would be a bummer.

I'll update when I make any progress.
Interesting and thoughtfully objective information. Looking forward to the next report... I'm sure it will shed a little light (no pun intended) on what happened and why.
Hope you can get it all sorted and working reliably.

C
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