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Old 12-04-2012, 04:05 PM   #271
Twilight Error
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Originally Posted by CodyY View Post
exactly my point.

Gotta be able to stretch legs around here.
Absolutely.

Having a single ride that can bounce off 130 in Texas (I live in Ct) AND with little more than a different set of tires take on a weekend with 300 miles of sled trail in Maine? Worth the cost of admission and the membership dues (picking that bugger up for the *nth time).

Alright, its heavy when I've got to pick it up, and I've got to be smart about the lines I take in the woods. Big damned deal, the Pigbeast handles it all and gets me to work in the morning.

Besides, the OP of this thread didn't specify singletrack, where I'll readily admit my GS is less-than-optimal, it was gravel/dirt roads that were the question.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:10 PM   #272
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Adventure bikes are perfect if you do 95% of your travel on pavement and are willing to slow down and take it easy on smooth, graded dirt and gravel roads. But if your off road conditions are more challenging than that they are not the ideal tool.

In reality most of us would need to travel to far flung remote locales to encounter dirt roads you could actually travel any distance on or go from point A to point B and then to point C. In the populated parts of North America the only dirt roads are the less traveled, tail ends, of remote rural roads that dead end. Where I ride I have yet to encounter a dirt road that is longer than a few kilometers, any dirt road over a kilometers is extremely rare.
You have a good point.....I live in the west and have access to endless mountain and desert riding, where I don't have to see pavement for a whole day...or days, if I choose. I really only need a bike with enough pavement abilities to get to the different dirt area's I want to explore. So for me the more agile, lightweight, and dirt oriented the bike the better. If I lived in an area that had very limited dirt access, and lots of pavement to get there, my bike preferences would definately be different.

On a side note, personally I'm pretty dissapointed to see even the most dirt oriented dual sports getting heavier and heavier with every new model. It seems like the industry is losing sight of what a dual sport orignally was, a street legal dirt bike.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:34 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post

You have a good point.....I live in the west and have access to endless mountain and desert riding, where I don't have to see pavement for a whole day...or days, if I choose. I really only need a bike with enough pavement abilities to get to the different dirt area's I want to explore. So for me the more agile, lightweight, and dirt oriented the bike the better. If I lived in an area that had very limited dirt access, and lots of pavement to get there, my bike preferences would definately be different.

On a side note, personally I'm pretty dissapointed to see even the most dirt oriented dual sports getting heavier and heavier with every new model. It seems like the industry is losing sight of what a dual sport orignally was, a street legal dirt bike.
KTM690 Enduro R

Last week combined the trail / enduro duties of a Berg 390 and dual sport duties of a DR650 into a 2012 KTM690 Enduro R ...

I had test-ridden the 690, but not offroad – astonished by how well it handles, and how easily it can be ridden over steep and gnarly single track, jumps, etc – only 145kg, and suspension as good as the Berg – enduro ergonomics – and then you’ve got 66hp for the fire trails / hard dirt roads / transport legs / etc ...

The 2012 690 has a genuine 690 displacement (c.f. 650 previous models) and a 10,000km service interval ...

Expensive, but the perfect all-purpose bike ...
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:06 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
You have a good point.....I live in the west and have access to endless mountain and desert riding, where I don't have to see pavement for a whole day...or days, if I choose. I really only need a bike with enough pavement abilities to get to the different dirt area's I want to explore. So for me the more agile, lightweight, and dirt oriented the bike the better. If I lived in an area that had very limited dirt access, and lots of pavement to get there, my bike preferences would definately be different.

On a side note, personally I'm pretty dissapointed to see even the most dirt oriented dual sports getting heavier and heavier with every new model. It seems like the industry is losing sight of what a dual sport orignally was, a street legal dirt bike.
I would not say the industry is loosing sight of what the original dual-sport design was but more building what they think can sell the most. In the end the motorcycle biz is about selling the most of something.

The truth is the majority of licensed riders don't venture in the dirt and then the ones that do go down dirt roads. The ones that ride more aggressive dirt roads and singletrack are the smallest group (of those who have a license and a tag).

Then add to the fact many use dual-sports as the new standard/utilitarian/commuter bike. Thus you can see why bikes like the DR650/KLR/Husky TR650 sell so well (priced affordable) even though they are heavier & lower-tech than say a KTM 500 w/ a tag.
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eakins screwed with this post 12-05-2012 at 01:20 PM
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:19 PM   #275
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To answer the OP original question in reference to the WABDR and big bikes.

The WABDR and other BDRs http://www.backcountrydiscoveryroutes.com/ are a Touratech driven project (we produce the map for them). They focus on large ADV bikes (1200/800GS centric) and that is what they ride. All of those riders are for the most part top level riders who make it look easier than it is. A certain number of people thus are using larger bikes than they should...but there is also the challenge in doing so.

The reality is a smaller bike is ideal for routes like these and I've found most are indeed using smaller bikes. Bikes like the WR250R are ideal on this terrain but less than ideal on the longer road section links. IMO 650 class dual-sports split the difference as they are easier to ride on dirt than the big ADV bikes yet still go down the paved roads nicely at speed. They are the true 50/50 bikes.

The best example would be the KTM 690. The TR650 and 660 Tenere (not in the US) would be the next tiers down with the BMW F650 thrown in but more street biased. After that you have the reliable but old-tech KLR, DR & XRL.

This is how I travel for ADV touring. For day rides I pull off the Giant Loop and Top case.
I've owned upwards of 4 bikes at a time for specific uses but at this point i've simplified with this one bike to cover most all the riding terrain.
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eakins screwed with this post 12-05-2012 at 01:24 PM
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:35 PM   #276
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First dual sports were scramblers? Street bikes with high pipes. Then came the "Enduros" which were more dirt oriented, but my 1975 DT250 wasn't much different than today's dual sports when you compare it to the same year YZ250. The old DT250 was heavier, didn't have the suspension that the YZ did, but it was a lot more comfortable and didn't have the on/off switch power of the YZ. that DT was perfect for a high school kid, that didn't have a lot of money, to have a set of wheels. Or that farmer/rancher that needed something to plod along on to check on livestock or crops. I'd venture to say, that it wasn't until the Euro bikes, trying to compete in that market, showed up with slapping lights on a full on dirt bike that some expectations changed. The old dual sports were hybrids that were cheap and reliable, that you could beat on all weekend and ride to school or work on Monday. Dual sports have come a long way and we have quite a few choices. The choice you want may not be in the brand you want, or the price range you want, but it's there. You just got to decide how much bike you want to pay for or can afford.

Oh yea, the question of "why such a big bike on gravel roads?", because I can and that's what I like.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:55 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by JWhitmore44 View Post
First dual sports were scramblers? Street bikes with high pipes. Then came the "Enduros" which were more dirt oriented, but my 1975 DT250 wasn't much different than today's dual sports when you compare it to the same year YZ250. The old DT250 was heavier, didn't have the suspension that the YZ did, but it was a lot more comfortable and didn't have the on/off switch power of the YZ. that DT was perfect for a high school kid, that didn't have a lot of money, to have a set of wheels. Or that farmer/rancher that needed something to plod along on to check on livestock or crops. I'd venture to say, that it wasn't until the Euro bikes, trying to compete in that market, showed up with slapping lights on a full on dirt bike that some expectations changed. The old dual sports were hybrids that were cheap and reliable, that you could beat on all weekend and ride to school or work on Monday. Dual sports have come a long way and we have quite a few choices. The choice you want may not be in the brand you want, or the price range you want, but it's there. You just got to decide how much bike you want to pay for or can afford.

Oh yea, the question of "why such a big bike on gravel roads?", because I can and that's what I like.
Yep, you and the flatland guys and others make a good case, I do not disagree. Big bikes are fun as well indeed, thrilling. My GT750 would wheelie... and it was quick and fast.

My current interest is being able to jump into narrow, gnarly terrain if I decide using the ride that I am traveling on.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:02 PM   #278
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I think the first standard of performance is the ability to pick the thing up in the mud by yourself.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:10 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
To answer the OP original question in reference to the WABDR and big bikes.

The WABDR and other BDRs http://www.backcountrydiscoveryroutes.com/ are a Touratech driven project (we produce the map for them). They focus on large ADV bikes (1200/800GS centric) and that is what they ride. All of those riders are for the most part top level riders who make it look easier than it is. A certain number of people thus are using larger bikes than they should...but there is also the challenge in doing so.

The reality is a smaller bike is ideal for routes like these and I've found most are indeed using smaller bikes. Bikes like the WR250R are ideal on this terrain but less than ideal on the longer road section links. IMO 650 class dual-sports split the difference as they are easier to ride on dirt than the big ADV bikes yet still go down the paved roads nicely at speed. They are the true 50/50 bikes.

The best example would be the KTM 690. The TR650 and 660 Tenere (not in the US) would be the next tiers down with the BMW F650 thrown in but more street biased. After that you have the reliable but old-tech KLR, DR & XRL.

This is how I travel for ADV touring. For day rides I pull off the Giant Loop and Top case.
I've owned upwards of 4 bikes at a time for specific uses but at this point i've simplified with this one bike to cover most all the riding terrain.
Nice ride, I had that bike at the top of the list for a while, looked at some DR650s. I went for a bike that can trail ride well, the WR250R for the CDR and adventure travels.

The OP started off talking about the CDR. I had already finished the WABDR. From what I see the CDR is probably easier for a big bike than is the WABDR. There were some rough sections on the WABDR, I think I took a foot off of the footpeg one time on one of the rough sections.

"All of those riders are for the most part top level riders who make it look easier than it is. " Gotta call bullshit there, skippy. You ain't selling me that crap. That crowd and Touratech are into retail marketing, that is it. All ok if folks want that, but purely retail marketing. And I am sure that guys like me would not be the darlings of Tourtech and Rawhyde because we do the same 'adventures' for 1/10 the cost, do it easier, faster. "Best riders"- then why do the idiots take such large streetbikes and try to shove them through mudholes and fall on simple road riding? I really feel sorry for the riders who follow this idea and flounder along. I have watched lots of CDR videos, the Rawyhyde ones are the real clown-show. Big street bikes for adventure, big luggage, followed around by a 1 ton truck with camp and catered food? Hilarious! And the 'best' riders on these big street bikes on dirt roads- I see there where the 'best' got injured in a crash and was unable to finish leading his $$$$ adventure?

There is a TR of the Canadian couple doing the WABDR, I find it tragic, their injurious struggle on their big BMWs! Man, they crashed over and over but toughed it through, a real adventure. Would have been easy on the right motorcycle.

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Old 12-05-2012, 05:31 PM   #280
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Very few that are worth a crap within an hr of freeway/highway riding. And it's posted 80 outside of townships on interstate and state highways. 85 from Ft.Stockton to ElPaso.
Hey,if the bike(s) your riding fit the bill...for you....go for it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:29 PM   #281
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ROAD bikes are perfect if you do 95% of your travel on pavement and are willing to slow down and take it easy on smooth, graded dirt and gravel roads. But if your off road conditions are more challenging than that they are not the ideal tool.
Fixed.

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Where I ride I have yet to encounter a dirt road that is longer than a few kilometers, any dirt road over a kilometers is extremely rare.
You poor bastard!
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:40 AM   #282
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Thanks on the bike.

I know those most all those guys who ride these BDRs and they are indeed quality riders who are use to this type of terrain on these big bikes. Each route seemed to have 1 guy who was newer to this and they showed that.

My point is they are comfortable with these big bikes, but someone who goes out and buys a big ADV bike and attempts to ride them will be challenged.

As for marketing, of course man. They need to sell products to support the work on these routes they are creating. Shit ain't cheap and the final bill per BDR is over 20k from TT and a huge chunk from us on the map production/printing end.

We are all sticking are necks out to make this a viable western-state dirt route project and everyone benefits from it. The gps tracks are free and you can just go and do it from there. The map is $15 and the DVD is purely optional. Not much cost back to the end user considering the outlay to produce it.

As for their "darling" riders, sure TT sells alot of expensive parts for ADV bikes but they also sell a ton of Klim gear, camping gear, gps gear, stuff like Giant Loop etc. This is all stuff the masses use. Sure if someone gets all their gear on the lower end then they will not shop there but TT is more than just BMW bling.

As for Rawhyde, they have they own angle and clientele base. They provide quality training (it took them years of quality workshops to get official endorsement from BMW) to use these massive 1200GS bikes, but don't get mad if they provide creature comforts during this training. That just makes you sound bitter for something you would not pay for or maybe can't afford.

Some people just have more $ to spend than others. Nothing more, nothing less. It's better than not trying and sitting around or worse yet riding with very poor skills and hurting yourself or others. Anyone willing to pay for training is smart person in my book. If someone needs more advanced training visit Jimmy Lewis http://jimmylewisoffroad.com/ or others. If $ is tight buy Neduros DVDs http://www.dualsportriding.com/

...but for heavens sake don't head out with little to no dirt training/practice on too bike for you and wad yourself up. I've seen that happen in person and it's never good for anyone involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
Nice ride, I had that bike at the top of the list for a while, looked at some DR650s. I went for a bike that can trail ride well, the WR250R for the CDR and adventure travels.

The OP started off talking about the CDR. I had already finished the WABDR. From what I see the CDR is probably easier for a big bike than is the WABDR. There were some rough sections on the WABDR, I think I took a foot off of the footpeg one time on one of the rough sections.

"All of those riders are for the most part top level riders who make it look easier than it is. " Gotta call bullshit there, skippy. You ain't selling me that crap. That crowd and Touratech are into retail marketing, that is it. All ok if folks want that, but purely retail marketing. And I am sure that guys like me would not be the darlings of Tourtech and Rawhyde because we do the same 'adventures' for 1/10 the cost, do it easier, faster. "Best riders"- then why do the idiots take such large streetbikes and try to shove them through mudholes and fall on simple road riding? I really feel sorry for the riders who follow this idea and flounder along. I have watched lots of CDR videos, the Rawyhyde ones are the real clown-show. Big street bikes for adventure, big luggage, followed around by a 1 ton truck with camp and catered food? Hilarious! And the 'best' riders on these big street bikes on dirt roads- I see there where the 'best' got injured in a crash and was unable to finish leading his $$$$ adventure?

There is a TR of the Canadian couple doing the WABDR, I find it tragic, their injurious struggle on their big BMWs! Man, they crashed over and over but toughed it through, a real adventure. Would have been easy on the right motorcycle.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:48 AM   #283
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I think this new picture, that just came out, nicely shows the difference in the availability of dirt & the attitude toward dirt (& thus bike choice) people can have.

Lights = areas where people live and thus (in a broad sense) more lights tends to equal less dirt. It's very easy to see why someone in the western mtn states see dirt one way vrs someone in the NY area.

There is a very obvious split right down the middle of the country defining each area.
Anyone who has traveled west and has hit the eastern edge of the Rockies and gone up and in will tell you it's a whole different world out west.


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Old 12-06-2012, 04:14 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
I think this new picture, that just came out, nicely shows the difference in the availability of dirt & the attitude toward dirt (& thus bike choice) people can have.

Lights = areas where people live and thus (in a broad sense) more lights tends to equal less dirt. It's very easy to see why someone in the western mtn states see dirt one way vrs someone in the NY area.

There is a very obvious split right down the middle of the country defining each area.
Anyone who has traveled west and has hit the eastern edge of the Rockies and gone up and in will tell you it's a whole different world out west.


West Virginia is pretty black.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:25 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
I think this new picture, that just came out, nicely shows the difference in the availability of dirt & the attitude toward dirt (& thus bike choice) people can have.

Lights = areas where people live and thus (in a broad sense) more lights tends to equal less dirt. It's very easy to see why someone in the western mtn states see dirt one way vrs someone in the NY area.

There is a very obvious split right down the middle of the country defining each area.
Anyone who has traveled west and has hit the eastern edge of the Rockies and gone up and in will tell you it's a whole different world out west.


Thanks for sharing that.....it really helps open my eye's a little on peoples availability to dirt. Growing up and living in the west, I've never had a lack of off-road areas to explore. But I've never lived or ridden in the eastern half of the U.S., so I think I wrongly assumed they must have something similiar. The difference in the areas would definately affect the kind of bike a person would own for sure
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