Sibirsky Extreme 2012 - The Toughest Ride of Them All

[agentsteel53]

(snipping most...)

Originally Posted by Colebatch

I say deep, because I am often amazed that even in a common western setting there is such a diversity in cultural preferences and ambitions.

as always, Walter, great commentary. you touched upon a few topics that here in the US would be considered "politically incorrect" to discuss, and I think that holds back American understanding of the world, and of ourselves as well.

the US culture in general (what's that I just said about stereotypes) has shifted to such a level of political correctness that it's difficult to have a candid conversation about such basic facts that, on a per capita basis, you'll find more Polish than Chinese ADV riders. so, with the discourse stalled at the gate, we are much more reluctant to explore why this is the case, and therefore such insights as Walter's would be viewed as awfully shocking, and not taken with the value it contains.

and I've succeeded in thoroughly hijacking the thread... moderators, please go ahead and move this discussion to somewhere more relevant - and let's get back to reading about Rod's trip west, and the Norwegian folks' trip east!

[mbravo]

Originally Posted by Colebatch

Belyashi vs Pirozhki s myasom ... Whats the difference. Seems the same meat. Same dough. Same fryer. Only the shape is different. The pirozhuk is elongated, while the belyash is circular.

I remember asking a Russian once while I stood at a zakusochnaya trying to make my choice. He shrugged his shoulders and said I think you get more meat and less dough in a belyash? He definitely wasnt sure. Maybe he was trying to justify himself, since he went ahead and bought a few belyashi.

Whats your take on that debate mbravo? If you were at a zakusochnaya somewhere and had a choice of belyashi or pirozhki s myasom, what would you choose, and why?

OK, let's see. There's at least three parts to this problem - theoretical, technical and practical :)

Now, the theory tells us that belyash as such is a Tatar word, and is related to a certain sort of Tatar meat pies. It also tells us that it has to be fried; in Russian, belyash is a pirozhok; it is just one of the many types possible.

Technically, your picture from zakusochnaya is slightly off, exactly because belyashi would be fried, and a generic pirozhok s myasom would be baked - granted, it might be difficult to see under often non-optimal lighting conditions :) I can also tell from experience that belyashi usually have kind of juicier stuffing, while a baked pirozhok would have drier minced meat inside.

Finally, the practical part tells us, iirc, that the proof is in the pudding. That is, I would consider the specimens before me and choose the ones I'd decide are better for me. There is a general preconception that belyash is a "cat-n-dog" pie, relating to the mystery meat status of its stuffing; it also kind of looks greasier and less healthy. But in reality you just take a look, sniff and buy what you like more.

Also, you have to take into account the geography. In Bashkiria or Tatarstan I'd take belyash without thinking twice. In St.Petersburg... I would lean towards pirozhki, but consider the specimens laid out before me, as above.

[WhorehayTheBarbarian]

Originally Posted by agentsteel53

this is interesting - the question is: why not? also, what about adventure motorcycling in China? there's gotta be some great tracks to be had there, but I've noticed a serious absence of China adventure reports on this forum.

is it a matter of the political climate being restrictive against overland travel, either by Chinese residents or foreigners? something else?

I completed 20 days of motorcyling in China back in 2010. I never did any kind of ride report because I didnt think people would be interested?

It is extremely difficult and expensive to do it "legally"... That being said, There are many ways to avoid these kinds of problems with the right assistance. I was fortunate enough to have the right contacts to make this happen and it was an experience I will never forget.

Colebatch is once again accurate on his understanding of cultures in regards to the Chinese. But, a change is very much happeneing in China as we speak in regards to Motorcycling...

I was able to make my journey based on my business involvement in exporting thousands of motos to china over the last 6-7 years. They have very strict regulations on engine size and models allowed to be imported... But the demand and supply is rapidly getting larger. There are lot of politics involved... but a change is happening I can assure you the next 10+ years will show a lot more motorcycling in China.

[ac_elite]

Rod, your writing cracks me up, please keep it up and take us all the way back to Moscow.

Sorry for the partial hijack, but it is a very interesting segway and somewhat pertinent to the content at hand.

Originally Posted by Colebatch

(...) Its not because they are discriminated against, its because they dont want to be public. They dont want to put themselves forward and face public scrutiny. They culturally dont subcribe to democracy, which is a very western concept - despite our politicians saying its a universal concept. They dont think those in power should be debased by public scrutiny. To the oriental mind, if you are in power, then you deserve respect. You may be subject to limited scrutiny but only from your peers, not from the general public. How many of the Oriental community in California actually even vote? Despite being there the best part of 2 centuries, they still do not embrace democracy. Because culturally its not their thing.

This is quite a fair assessment, although when we speak about culture(s) we are always speaking in general terms. What Walter is referring to from a more technical/academic perspective is called "Power distance" it is one of the concepts developed by Hofstede.

For anyone interested in what makes a society (in terms of culture) the way it is, and how it is perceived by the self and the other, read Edward T. Hall, Geert Hofstede, a W.B Gudykunst, just to name a few. There is also a neat app for iphone called Culture GPS, the lite ed is free and it is based on the theoretical framework of Hofstede.

Not only is power distance a very notable difference between West/East cultures, but the notion of uncertainty avoidance, and concepts of "hi/low context" explain a lot of the on the nature of encounters with locals as well as anything related to traffic and driving. Two things most important for the avid adventurer travelling the world.

[agentsteel53]

Originally Posted by MeinMotorrad

there are links to some pretty gruesome videos of mob violence.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=618066

"This video has been removed as a violation of YouTube's policy on shocking and disgusting content."

oh boy, I'm glad I'm able to make my own informed decision as to what counts as legitimate social observation, and what is comparable in value to "two girls, one cup". thanks, YouTube. the jokes about the Great Firewall of China just write themselves, don't they?

[MFS]

2 girls one cup! Seen that, ONCE!

After that I just looked away every time I forced it on someone else

MFS

[Colebatch]

Originally Posted by mbravo

Technically, your picture from zakusochnaya is slightly off, exactly because belyashi would be fried, and a generic pirozhok s myasom would be baked

I think thats very theoretical. While in a proper restaurant, I would indeed expect a pirozhuk to be baked, I have almost never seen a baked pirozhuk in a zakusochnaya ... frying is faster and easier ... so they seem to fry pirozhki in the crummy level of cafe's i find.

Originally Posted by mbravo

I can also tell from experience that belyashi usually have kind of juicier stuffing

You mean like a Cheburek? Where you have to watch out for boiling hot juices and fat dripping out and burning your skin while you eat? ... yes, true, that seems less of a problem with a pirozhuk s myasom.

[Colebatch]

Originally Posted by WhorehayTheBarbarian

I was able to make my journey based on my business involvement in exporting thousands of motos to china over the last 6-7 years. They have very strict regulations on engine size and models allowed to be imported... But the demand and supply is rapidly getting larger. There are lot of politics involved... but a change is happening I can assure you the next 10+ years will show a lot more motorcycling in China.

Absolutely - and I totally agree with that ... cultural values are definitely are not static. Once a generation of China's kids grown up with all the trappings of the good life, they will get bored with it and seek wilder pastures in order to prove themselves - in order to "achieve". Maybe then the worlds largest market will start making their own top quality adventure motorcycles. Maybe a Chinese movie star will make a documentary riding a Chinese adventure bike around the US and Canada, and it (adventure motorcycling) will becoming the coolest thing there, almost overnight.

Its all possible

[Colebatch]

Originally Posted by GSlite

Yup. Have you read Gaurav Jani's journals or watched his films? Great stuff. And he's a super nice and humble guy.

Yes I have ... and I am very good friends with another Indian adv motorcyclist, LovemaX who has also done some amazing rides in that part of the world:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272604

and in Europe. And he has become in recent years probably the best adventure motorcycle photographer I have seen. (the pics in the report above are quite old and nowhere near as stunning as many of his more recent pics, since his photography really took off).

I think these guys are a totally typical of the strong propensity of Indian guys to embrace adventure motorcycling in a fantastic way. When you consider the limited resources, and the fact that India is surrounded by borders that are very difficult for them to cross (Pakistan, China, Burma) making international adv motorcycling very difficult for them, these guys do really amazing stuff.

[Colebatch]

Originally Posted by 02short

When I see these pics I wonder what the gearheads in Russia would have done had they had the same freedoms and resources as those of us in the west. There seems to be no shortage of ingenuity given what they had to work with.

They have plenty of ingenuity for sure ... but a shortage of small block chevs and 351 clevelands to drop into their old Ladas and Volgas ... which limits how dramatic they can go.

[BK.RD.RNR]

Originally Posted by agentsteel53

"This video has been removed as a violation of YouTube's policy on shocking and disgusting content."

oh boy, I'm glad I'm able to make my own informed decision as to what counts as legitimate social observation, and what is comparable in value to "two girls, one cup". thanks, YouTube. the jokes about the Great Firewall of China just write themselves, don't they?

That's weird, they played for me. I kinda wish the first one had not. Very sad and disturbing.

[25jack]

Originally Posted by stemic01

Went from Montana to Peru fall 2012

Steve you are a traveling fool.....any trip report on that one?
Was it anticlimactic after mother Russia?

I will do it myself in 2013. IF I can keep Erik out of the "Coffee Shop" long enough to send some parts

[GSlite]

Originally Posted by Colebatch

I think these guys are a totally typical of the strong propensity of Indian guys to embrace adventure motorcycling in a fantastic way. When you consider the limited resources, and the fact that India is surrounded by borders that are very difficult for them to cross (Pakistan, China, Burma) making international adv motorcycling very difficult for them, these guys do really amazing stuff.

Agreed. And the bridge scene in One Crazy Ride made my palms sweat as much as the Vitim bridge stories and videos

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by stemic01

I have not made a advrider report from the S.America trip yet. The plan is to make it when I've got more time.
XC: Bought a used XC from an advrider Inmate in Montana, US. That is were the my America trip started.
Other travelers were going on all kind of bikes. BMW G650, F800, 1200GS, some older Suzuki and Honda stuff. I did not see one single Xchallenge or Xcountry.
My trip from Norway to Russia were supposed to be a solo ride, but I met pepole and rode some alone and some with others. The America part of my trip I rode with two friends for most of the time. We also met others which joined us for some days/weeks. Gringo trail: We did drive more on the Pan American highways than off it, but we tried to get off and do dirt roads.
We started in September ending before christmas. I would say that you should have at least 6 months from USA to Ushuaia and to get somewhere where you can ship your bike from. We had too little time and we could not stop and visit all places we wanted.

Thanks for the update Steve!
Looking forward to your S. America report when you get around to it.
Doing a good Ride Report takes a lot of time/effort. I've never done one.

[Phipsd]

Walter: You are right, there are amazing national differences. I like to travel the backroads of western North America by bike taking in the sights becoming 'part of the land' and visiting National Parks. I'll get to a place like Arches in Utah and I'll spend the day hiking around.

I see few locals. Lots of Americans visit the Parks, but most don't get out of their cars. I see lots of Europeans out hiking around, hoards of Germans and Japanese; and recently more and more South Asians.

No Chinese. When I talk to my Chinese friends:" What if I had a breakdown, it's too dangerous, America is dangerous, Americans don't like Chinese" .....and so on. They frequently seem to have a horror of the unknown where they might have to use their judgement and a fear of physical risk. And yet look at how they drive!!!!! LOL

A few years ago a US military plane flew to Antarctica in the dead of winter with a volunteer crew because of the risk, for a medical emergency. The comment I got was that," Nobody in China would volunteer to do that."

There was genuine puzzlement why anyone would do such a thing. It's just a different way of thinking and kind of strange when you think of the incredible exploration the Chinese were doing in huge sailing ships hundreds of years before the Europeans.