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Old 11-04-2012, 01:33 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by K0m4 View Post
So far he doesn't, as we discussed in the other thread. If he returns and improves his record, then I may revisit that opinion. Has nothing to do with his personality.
victories 2nd places 3rd places poles fastest laps World Championships
AGOSTINI Giacomo 122 35 2 9 117 15
ROSSI Valentino 105 45 27 59 87 9
NIETO Angel 90 35 14 34 81 13
HAILWOOD Mike 76 25 11 79 9
DOOHAN Mick 54 31 10 58 46 5
READ Phil 52 44 25 5 36 7
REDMAN Jim 45 33 20 35 6
STONER Casey 45 17 26 43 33 2
PEDROSA Dani 44 38 29 41 54 3
LORENZO Jorge 44 36 18 51 23 4
BIAGGI Max 42 41 28 56 42 4
MANG Anton 42 25 17 34 26 5
UBBIALI Carlo 39 20 9 34 9
SURTEES John 38 4 3 34 7
MARTINEZ Jorge 37 14 10 42 11 4
CADALORA Luca 34 22 16 29 30 3
DUKE Geoff 33 7 10 29 6
LAWSON Eddie 31 31 16 18 21 4
BALLINGTON Kork 31 9 6 19 16 4
TAVERI Luigi 30 33 26 28 3
CAPIROSSI Loris 29 34 36 41 32 3
LAZZARINI Eugenio 27 35 19 35 15 3
BIANCHI Pierpaolo 27 17 17 32 25 3
SPENCER Freddie 27 10 2 33 24 3
SCHWANTZ Kevin 25 13 13 29 26 1
ANDERSON Hugh 25 12 11 25 4
MARQUEZ Marc 25 5 8 28 15 2
RAINEY Wayne 24 22 19 16 23 3
ROBERTS Kenny 24 14 6 22 27 3
VILLA Walter 24 6 6 21 20 4
SHEENE Barry 23 13 16 19 20 2
MELANDRI Marco 22 20 20 9 16 1

8th on this list is amongst the greatest surely?
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:10 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by advNZer? View Post
victories 2nd places 3rd places poles fastest laps World Championships
AGOSTINI Giacomo 122 35 2 9 117 15
ROSSI Valentino 105 45 27 59 87 9
NIETO Angel 90 35 14 34 81 13
HAILWOOD Mike 76 25 11 79 9
DOOHAN Mick 54 31 10 58 46 5
READ Phil 52 44 25 5 36 7
REDMAN Jim 45 33 20 35 6
STONER Casey 45 17 26 43 33 2
PEDROSA Dani 44 38 29 41 54 3
LORENZO Jorge 44 36 18 51 23 4
BIAGGI Max 42 41 28 56 42 4
MANG Anton 42 25 17 34 26 5
UBBIALI Carlo 39 20 9 34 9
SURTEES John 38 4 3 34 7
MARTINEZ Jorge 37 14 10 42 11 4
CADALORA Luca 34 22 16 29 30 3
DUKE Geoff 33 7 10 29 6
LAWSON Eddie 31 31 16 18 21 4
BALLINGTON Kork 31 9 6 19 16 4
TAVERI Luigi 30 33 26 28 3
CAPIROSSI Loris 29 34 36 41 32 3
LAZZARINI Eugenio 27 35 19 35 15 3
BIANCHI Pierpaolo 27 17 17 32 25 3
SPENCER Freddie 27 10 2 33 24 3
SCHWANTZ Kevin 25 13 13 29 26 1
ANDERSON Hugh 25 12 11 25 4
MARQUEZ Marc 25 5 8 28 15 2
RAINEY Wayne 24 22 19 16 23 3
ROBERTS Kenny 24 14 6 22 27 3
VILLA Walter 24 6 6 21 20 4
SHEENE Barry 23 13 16 19 20 2
MELANDRI Marco 22 20 20 9 16 1

8th on this list is amongst the greatest surely?
When you look at the names below him , DEFINITELY
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:19 AM   #153
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Ok so Eddie Lawson, for example, who won 4 world titles, and changed manufacturer, but still kept the title (just like Stoner and Rossi), while riding against allegedly the toughest field of all time (Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz, Mamola, Doohan, etc) on them fire-breathing two-stroke monsters, is 10 places below Stoner? Because only the number of race victories count??

I do respect Stoner hugely, and he's certainly among the best riders of his time. But this kind of classification will always be open to debate. The sport changes, and you just can't compare riders from different eras.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:26 AM   #154
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As I already said in the other thread when you posted the exact same thing: i) that piece of statistic you chose is probably the worst one for looking over time between different riders - it simply doesn't allow for a fair comparison, and ii) it takes more than a big number of wins to be one of the greats. If you need to show people statistics to convince them you're one of the greats, you're not. He's a good rider and a world champion, but he is not to be mentioned in the same sentence as Doohan, Rossi, Rainey, as just some examples. And he is far from alone in history or even the present to ride a bike sideways through a turn.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:28 AM   #155
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I think we could all agree this photo is awesome
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:17 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by K0m4 View Post
As I already said in the other thread when you posted the exact same thing: i) that piece of statistic you chose is probably the worst one for looking over time between different riders - it simply doesn't allow for a fair comparison, and ii) it takes more than a big number of wins to be one of the greats. If you need to show people statistics to convince them you're one of the greats, you're not. He's a good rider and a world champion, but he is not to be mentioned in the same sentence as Doohan, Rossi, Rainey, as just some examples. And he is far from alone in history or even the present to ride a bike sideways through a turn.
Some quotes from a story I'm writing for a magazine:

Jorge Lorenzo: "Maybe the fastest one, or the most talented one I have seen on a race track"

"I think I was quite lucky in the years he was in Ducati, because if he would have been in another factory like Yamaha or Honda, he would have won more races and even more world titles. "

Ben Spies:
"To me I think he's definitely the fastest person ever to ride a motorcycle, I mean the most talented, when it comes to raw talent, for sure. "

Andrea Dovizioso:

"he is very fast, the fastest, his feeling is really high,"

Nicky Hayden:

"I think he elevated the speed. That's what Casey has, is just natural speed."

Of course, these world champion motorcycle racers could just be full of shit.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:50 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advNZer? View Post
victories 2nd places 3rd places poles fastest laps World Championships
AGOSTINI Giacomo 122 35 2 9 117 15
ROSSI Valentino 105 45 27 59 87 9
NIETO Angel 90 35 14 34 81 13
HAILWOOD Mike 76 25 11 79 9
DOOHAN Mick 54 31 10 58 46 5
READ Phil 52 44 25 5 36 7
REDMAN Jim 45 33 20 35 6
STONER Casey 45 17 26 43 33 2
PEDROSA Dani 44 38 29 41 54 3
LORENZO Jorge 44 36 18 51 23 4
BIAGGI Max 42 41 28 56 42 4
MANG Anton 42 25 17 34 26 5
UBBIALI Carlo 39 20 9 34 9
SURTEES John 38 4 3 34 7
MARTINEZ Jorge 37 14 10 42 11 4
CADALORA Luca 34 22 16 29 30 3
DUKE Geoff 33 7 10 29 6
LAWSON Eddie 31 31 16 18 21 4
BALLINGTON Kork 31 9 6 19 16 4
TAVERI Luigi 30 33 26 28 3
CAPIROSSI Loris 29 34 36 41 32 3
LAZZARINI Eugenio 27 35 19 35 15 3
BIANCHI Pierpaolo 27 17 17 32 25 3
SPENCER Freddie 27 10 2 33 24 3
SCHWANTZ Kevin 25 13 13 29 26 1
ANDERSON Hugh 25 12 11 25 4
MARQUEZ Marc 25 5 8 28 15 2
RAINEY Wayne 24 22 19 16 23 3
ROBERTS Kenny 24 14 6 22 27 3
VILLA Walter 24 6 6 21 20 4
SHEENE Barry 23 13 16 19 20 2
MELANDRI Marco 22 20 20 9 16 1

8th on this list is amongst the greatest surely?
So many numbers and still you rank him 8th, simply by the number of victorys...

Rank him by world champion titles aand he's on position.... 28th ...

kyns screwed with this post 11-04-2012 at 05:24 AM
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:56 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
Some quotes from a story I'm writing for a magazine:

Jorge Lorenzo: "Maybe the fastest one, or the most talented one I have seen on a race track"

"I think I was quite lucky in the years he was in Ducati, because if he would have been in another factory like Yamaha or Honda, he would have won more races and even more world titles. "

Ben Spies:
"To me I think he's definitely the fastest person ever to ride a motorcycle, I mean the most talented, when it comes to raw talent, for sure. "

Andrea Dovizioso:

"he is very fast, the fastest, his feeling is really high,"

Nicky Hayden:

"I think he elevated the speed. That's what Casey has, is just natural speed."

Of course, these world champion motorcycle racers could just be full of shit.
No. I don't think they are full of shit, but maybe close to full of hypocracy...

If they had been asked to tell their opinions about Stoner a year or two ago, i don't think they had been so "kind"
But NOW, that he's retiring...

You have quotes from JLO, Ben, Andrea and Nicky... I'm curious what Randy, Abraham, Rossi really think... maybe not printable for the magazine story...
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:06 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
Some quotes from a story I'm writing for a magazine:

Jorge Lorenzo: "Maybe the fastest one, or the most talented one I have seen on a race track"

"I think I was quite lucky in the years he was in Ducati, because if he would have been in another factory like Yamaha or Honda, he would have won more races and even more world titles. "

Ben Spies:
"To me I think he's definitely the fastest person ever to ride a motorcycle, I mean the most talented, when it comes to raw talent, for sure. "

Andrea Dovizioso:

"he is very fast, the fastest, his feeling is really high,"

Nicky Hayden:

"I think he elevated the speed. That's what Casey has, is just natural speed."

Of course, these world champion motorcycle racers could just be full of shit.
Everyone has opinions, polished or not. Run it through a contemporary MotoGP political filter, and see what comes out. He is quite obviously not the fastest person ever.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:39 AM   #160
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No. I don't think they are full of shit, but maybe close to full of hypocracy...

If they had been asked to tell their opinions about Stoner a year or two ago, i don't think they had been so "kind"
But NOW, that he's retiring...

You have quotes from JLO, Ben, Andrea and Nicky... I'm curious what Randy, Abraham, Rossi really think... maybe not printable for the magazine story...
Only one who disagrees is Rossi, and his record speaks for itself.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:40 AM   #161
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Everyone has opinions, polished or not. Run it through a contemporary MotoGP political filter, and see what comes out. He is quite obviously not the fastest person ever.
So who is the fastest person ever?
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:02 AM   #162
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So who is the fastest person ever?
Looking over the track lap records could give you a good idea of that and Stoner right now I'm sure holds more than his fair share. Race lap records IMHO are what really count.
But in speaking of legacy, time has a way of doing away with what can be important contemporary nuances.
Also in looking at that list of total victories, how many of those are in the Premier Class? Premier Class World Championships are what are more memorable as well and more solidifying in Casey's legacy.
It's a crying shame that Casey is leaving the series young, healthy and fighting for a Premier Class World Championship.
Also Casey provides a regional diversity to a sport that is in danger of not having sufficient Global representation to provide series ticket sales, TV sales and sponsorships.
It's looking more and more Eurocentric and more like a Spanish Championship series than a Global Premier Motorcycle Racing Series with the loss of Casey. IMHO from the Western Hemisphere of the planet.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:33 AM   #163
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It's looking more and more Eurocentric and more like a Spanish Championship series than a Global Premier Motorcycle Racing Series with the loss of Casey. IMHO from the Western Hemisphere of the planet.
Moto3 and the Red Bull Rookies show a glimpse of the future. In the RBR, there's a couple of fast Germans, a fast Dutch kid, a fast Belgian kid, and a Czech kid who many are tipping as being something very special.

In Moto3, there's a handful of fast Spaniards (including two or three very fast, very special kids), plus a German world champion, a quick English kid, a couple of promising Australians (for the record, I think Jack Miller is better than Arthur Sissis, but Sissis has top equipment) and even more interestingly, a really quick Malaysian.

At national level, the Dutch federation has put together a coherent program containing a path for young kids to follow, and there's 3 or 4 coming through who could make it to Grand Prix. I believe the Germans are doing something similar, and the Italian federation has a program that is just starting to bear fruit as well. This is the zenith of Spanish domination of the sport. Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Marquez will dominate MotoGP in the next 3-5 years, and then the Spaniards will start to fade.

The real problem for the US is that there is no coherent effort from the AMA to put together a racing program preparing kids for Grand Prix.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:18 AM   #164
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The real problem for the US is that there is no coherent effort from the AMA to put together a racing program preparing kids for Grand Prix.
I'm not sure I can agree. AMA Pro has two 600 classes for kids to come up through. One can build a competitive bike for about $25k using kit parts, plus maybe another $5k worth of spares. The finished product makes about 125hp.

Every round is a double header, so the kid gets two chances at it and lots of track time. Enough track time to use up 7 rear tires and 4 fronts (more in the Daytona class). Below AMA Pro is the WERA series, which allows younger kids to race full sized road racers. That's where Graves seems to be mining for talent.

Then there is all the youth racing these kids came up through before even trying the tarmac. Motocross and dirt track. Probably American motocross youth leagues are the best there is anywhere.

Sure, it's not the same as what is available in Europe, but it isn't nothing. Kids learn how to race, and a few might have a career at it.

The biggest problem I see with bringing up new kids in the USA is the cost to compete. Motorcycle racing is a blue collar sport in our country. Not many parents can afford the tire and travel tab, let alone the time off work to tour. The best they can do is to try and buy a privateer seat from a credible team. There are about a half dozen to choose from. That's not enough to make a dent.

There is something afoot, however. The AMA Pro Supersport grids were bigger than ever this season. Reminded me of the heydays of the 90's. Some of those kids might make it to Europe like Casey did. Moto2 seems made for them.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:08 AM   #165
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I'm not sure I can agree. AMA Pro has two 600 classes for kids to come up through. One can build a competitive bike for about $25k using kit parts, plus maybe another $5k worth of spares. The finished product makes about 125hp.
These races are good for preparing riders for the AMA SBK and maybe even WSS and WSBK, but not for Grand Prix. In Holland, for example, there is the NSF 100 cup, then a Yamaha R125 Cup, and then the Moriwaki Cup.

The NSF100 cup costs 1000 euros a season. The Yamaha cup costs 4K per season, and the Moriwaki cup is the most expensive, racing MD250Hs, which is not far off a basic Moto3 bike. That costs a lot, maybe 20K euros a season.

I don't see anything similar in the US, but that could be down to my own ignorance, rather than a lack of a class.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
Every round is a double header, so the kid gets two chances at it and lots of track time. Enough track time to use up 7 rear tires and 4 fronts (more in the Daytona class). Below AMA Pro is the WERA series, which allows younger kids to race full sized road racers. That's where Graves seems to be mining for talent.

Then there is all the youth racing these kids came up through before even trying the tarmac. Motocross and dirt track. Probably American motocross youth leagues are the best there is anywhere.

Sure, it's not the same as what is available in Europe, but it isn't nothing. Kids learn how to race, and a few might have a career at it.

The biggest problem I see with bringing up new kids in the USA is the cost to compete. Motorcycle racing is a blue collar sport in our country. Not many parents can afford the tire and travel tab, let alone the time off work to tour. The best they can do is to try and buy a privateer seat from a credible team. There are about a half dozen to choose from. That's not enough to make a dent.

There is something afoot, however. The AMA Pro Supersport grids were bigger than ever this season. Reminded me of the heydays of the 90's. Some of those kids might make it to Europe like Casey did. Moto2 seems made for them.
Like I said, I see them more heading into WSS than Moto2. The bikes are a considerably different, and not many riders have made the transition from a production racer to a Moto2 bike very well.

It is true, though, that the main way in right now is to come to Europe. Hard to make the transfer from a national series to the world stage.
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