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Old 10-19-2012, 06:56 AM   #1
kamanya OP
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Adventure gears into a Super Duke Engine? - It can be done!

I refreshed my bike in December, 2004 950 Refresh putting a 990 Super Duke engine into a 2004 950 frame. Since then I’ve ridden it in a heap of technical stuff, done a 2 day rally and recently been on a 3000km ride. Maybe 7000k’s in total?

In slower stuff, the engine was great. Very snappy, loads of torque, refuses to stall and lots of control. The downside is that with a road bike gearbox the spacing of the gears is not great for dual sport. In the faster stuff it’s like riding around in 5th all the time. It’s very bearable but with the price of fuel rocketing it is getting old quick. On the recent trip I had to do 1200km’s in a day. The entire day was with a terrible headwind. At one stage I put a 42 litres through the bike doing about 170kph. That got me 350kms at 7.41 km/l. This is Landcruiser territory. Ok, so I have Keihin FCR pumper carbs, but still, it is a little over the top.

Riding offroad with the SD gears takes some recalibration. The rev distance between the gears for the same speed is small, so down changing is a two cog affair to get usable engine braking. Accelerating, I started to ride revs instead of torque. Or rowing the gearbox to get to where I needed to be. Nothing game breaking but all this got me to wondering about getting a change of gearbox.

As KTM doesn’t have a technical help desk for plebes, conventional wisdom on the internet is that the gearboxes are not swappable. All the parts numbers are different and the cases have been changed slightly from the earlier to later years. I have a 2008 SD engine. I spent a fair amount of time trying to find out if it was possible and came up with a big fat zero. I was keen at the least to just change 6th gear. Sort of like an overdrive. If I could just do that then I could easily live with the rest. Buying a new gear is not cheap.

One evening, I got fed up and thought, “let’s just see if at least 6th gear in my old 950 engine is ok?”. So I headed into the garage to dig out my old 950 engine looking very sorry for itself to find out.



Getting the baked on sand off was a bit of a mission.





It was still very clean with little sign of a good 65 000km of fun.







There was however, the evidence of where my oil had been weeping on the rear cylinder and the original reason I changed the engine.



Still, not bad for a heavily used engine!



This is what I came for;



4 hours later, one gearbox harvested. It looked mint! All the gears and dogs have little or no wear!. Impressive designing these Austrians.



Well….

Taking inspiration from Pyndon, Sakurama, Flanny and the boys all doing great projects, I thought there is only one way to find out if these adventure gears will work. So lying to myself that as the engine needed a service, I might as well take a look see, a few night later I took the plunge.

It is amazing how fast a bike can be taken apart compared to putting it back together again.



Still not too late to turn back…



Too late…





As we say in the vernacular, Mooi!





Trying to keep it all tidy and not lose or mix stuff, zip locks are excellent.





My solution to the cam chain bolt issue



This looks familiar



Next, “I wonder if I can use more than just 6th?”
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kamanya screwed with this post 10-21-2012 at 11:47 AM
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:17 AM   #2
Stumpalump
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Where I ride (rocks) I like a granny low 1st gear. I gear my dirt bikes down so low with sprockets I top out real early. I would love that tall 6th gear so I could gear down with sprockets and still have a deceit hwy rpm. I'm sure there is something more to your concern...........?
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:47 AM   #3
kamanya OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumpalump View Post
Where I ride (rocks) I like a granny low 1st gear. I gear my dirt bikes down so low with sprockets I top out real early. I would love that tall 6th gear so I could gear down with sprockets and still have a deceit hwy rpm. I'm sure there is something more to your concern...........?
Yep that's why I had to see if this would work.
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:52 AM   #4
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I'm scared of this thread......

Good luck! i hope you can make it work!
I would be helping you if i were close by.
I love projects!
One advice i would give is buy the gasket kit and change all the gaskets and seals......heat kills the seals and since you're there it doesn't hurt that much.

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Old 10-19-2012, 07:54 AM   #5
kamanya OP
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Well, here they are side by side. For the unpractised eye, the way to tell them apart, apart from counting teeth, is looking at the primary shafts. The 950 has oil flutes in the shaft as it has a 12 tooth first gear and the SD has a 14 toothed non-fluted shaft. Also, it’s apparent how much 1st and 6th differ on both (they are the top most and 2nd from the bottom gears). So Adventure on the left and SD on the right.



Adventure



Super Duke



Exploded of secondary shaft, 950 on the right SD on the Left



So in summary;

The primary/main shafts are different only in the size of 1st gear. All the other dimensions are the same.
There is no difference in the secondary/counter shafts (in fact they have the same part numbers).
All needle bearings, washers and spring rings are identical.
The gears are of course different only in the amount of teeth they have, their internal diameters and shapes are identical.

I could have just taken the complete 950 gear set and put it in the 990, but I was worried about the wear factors. So I took what I could keep from the 990 (for wear and newness sake) and added the bits I needed from the 950

So if you are going to do this, to change the SD’s engine to an Adventure gearbox the following has to be done;

For the Secondary shaft, keep all the needle bearings, washers, circlips, and secondary shaft from the SD. Mount all the gears from the Adventure.
For the Primary shaft, keep all the needle bearings, washers and circlips from the SD. Mount them on the Primary shaft with the gears from the Adventure. (you could just use the complete Adventure Primary if you trust the needle bearings).

One new Adventure gear set for the SD Engine



The shift roller bearing was a bit notchy so that was changed but all the rest were fine. Interestingly on my 950 engine, this too was the only bearing that was notchy.



Held my breath here, would it fit?…



Yeha! Well at least it works while on the bench



Now to close it all up.

This split gear on the balancer shaft was a bitch to get back in. Had me scratchin my head for a while. A drill bit sorted it out in the end.



And this is where I am at so far.



I’ll update this as I go from here and how it rides once I get it going.
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:58 AM   #6
kamanya OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GZERO View Post
I'm scared of this thread......

Good luck! i hope you can make it work!
I would be helping you if i were close by.
I love projects!
One advice i would give is buy the gasket kit and change all the gaskets and seals......heat kills the seals and since you're there it doesn't hurt that much.

Yep, all gaskets and seals were changed.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:23 AM   #7
GZERO
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how was the sprocket mount on the output shaft?
because if you have it apart and the splines look worn it might be a good idea to change it now.

BTW: that looks like a very upgrade engine, most of the design "flaws" the 950 had i see corrected on that engine........sooo jelous.
In the end what gears did you finally exchange?
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:29 AM   #8
kamanya OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GZERO View Post
how was the sprocket mount on the output shaft?
because if you have it apart and the splines look worn it might be a good idea to change it now.

BTW: that looks like a very upgrade engine, most of the design "flaws" the 950 had i see corrected on that engine........sooo jelous.
In the end what gears did you finally exchange?
All of them. I should have a normal Adventure gearbox if it all works when I get it going again. Still have to finish building the engine and putting it back into the bike.

Output shaft is fine, it is from the 990 engine and only has about 15000km on it.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:52 AM   #9
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You thought it was better to take off and re-use circlips than leave the assembly untouched? Interesting........
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:28 AM   #10
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Nice work Andrew! You'll be the go to guy for all things 9X0 in Cape Town
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:04 AM   #11
GZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
All of them. I should have a normal Adventure gearbox if it all works when I get it going again. Still have to finish building the engine and putting it back into the bike.
So there is no way to use the short first the SD has, right?

I would really like a shorter first, in the tight stuff i miss it.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:19 AM   #12
kamanya OP
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Originally Posted by GZERO View Post
So there is no way to use the short first the SD has, right?

I would really like a shorter first, in the tight stuff i miss it.
?

The SD has a taller 1st gear than and Adventure? If you kept your current SD gearbox and sprocket choice and only put in an Adventure 6th gear combo (remember you need the 6th gear pair) then you'd have what I think your looking for.

However, the Adverure gearbox has a better spread of ratios so that rock crawling and reasonable road speed is possible.

If you didn't have a complete spare Adventure gearbox to pick from, then just buying the 6th gear pair would be the way to go.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
?

The SD has a taller 1st gear than and Adventure? If you kept your current SD gearbox and sprocket choice and only put in an Adventure 6th gear combo (remember you need the 6th gear pair) then you'd have what I think your looking for.

However, the Adverure gearbox has a better spread of ratios so that rock crawling and reasonable road speed is possible.

If you didn't have a complete spare Adventure gearbox to pick from, then just buying the 6th gear pair would be the way to go.
oh i'm wrong then, sorry, i didn't check that up!
But ok, I guess adventure bikes have to come with a 7 speed gearbox, because they need the REALLY SLOW first and a good cruising in 7th gear.

Don't get me wrong, my stock 950 ADV with 17/45 is close to what i need, but sometimes i would like a slower first for when i'm waiting for my friends lol
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:45 AM   #14
snowhawk jockey
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Great project.
I have used KTM's multi fit designs to combine features and components from little bikes and big bikes on the chassis. The cam swapping, carb vs EFI swapping and now Tranny swaps.

Tranny gear swaps in RFS motors was a regular thing to go from 4-speed close ration to 6 speed semi-close ratio w/overdrive 6th for high speed dual sport runs and low speed single tracking.

The fact that you are swapping the SD gears out for ADV gears, showing the compatibility, is SWEET! Should be a first on the board...

Now to find that 990 SD/R motor with the big valve heads and tall cams, to bolt up my FCR's and tranny!
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
There was however, the evidence of where my oil had been weeping on the rear cylinder and the original reason I changed the engine.



Your "Pyndon Syndrome" looked a bit worse then mine:

Rear base surface


Good to know there will be solutions to keep the bike alive after an engine swap, been tempted to pull the trigger on a 990R but that would leave me in a position were any traveling next summer would not be possible so try to squeeze some more life out of my engine, 55 000 kms on mine.

Thanks a lot for sharing!

/Johan
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