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View Results: Amendment 64: The Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol Act of 2012
Yes 102 73.91%
No 36 26.09%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-26-2012, 06:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ironbrewer View Post
Yes it does. And even if this passes I still won't smoke, because my employer will surely side with federal law. I will not smoke until it is legal federally. I vote yes because it is a start to fight the laws on the books.
I won't smoke because of my responsibilities at work and at home. Things may change decades down the road. I hope my children grow up in a country that values their freedoms not imprison them for it.
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:38 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Duck_Pilot View Post
The Dude made a good point. Allow me to amplify it:

Uncle Sam is already a hostile, sloppy drunk and chain smoker - addicted to the "sin-taxes" generated by alcohol and tobacco sales. The last thing we need is to addict him to pot as well. I have yet to see ANY government body act responsibly with public spending and debt. Adding another tax base will mean increased spending, fraud and corruption...... not the reduction of other taxes.

As people grow wiser and stop drinking, smoking and toking, the taxes on those substances will increase to make up for the revenue loss. Once a certain taxation level exists, the black market will thrive once again. And then taxes on everything we have trouble doing without will be established or increased.

I have no problem with folks using pot, for recreation or medication - as long as those people will still be liable for their actions/inactions. Same goes for using alcohol, cocaine, heroin or any other mind-altering substance. Legalizing sales, using taxation FOR ANY PURPOSE as justification, is dangerous insanity.
Wow thats a bizarre argument. Motorcycling should be illegal. The government taxes sales of motorcycle, parts, safety gear, and gas. The government can as a result spend more money. Therefore motorcycling should be illegal

Deaths per year from:
tobacco=340,000-395,000
Alcohol (not including accidents)=125,000+
Drug overdose (prescription)=14,000-27,000
Drug overdose (illegal)=3,800-5,200
Marijuana=0






Annual U.S. motorcycle deaths
Year Deaths
1994 2,320
1995 2,227
1996 2,161
1997 2,116
1998 2,294
1999 2,483
2000 2,897
2001 3,197†
2002 3,244
2003 3,661‡
2004 4,028
2005 4,576
2006 4,837
2007 5,174
2008 5,312
2009 4,462
2010 3,615[3]
† some NHTSA lists show 3,181
‡ some NHTSA lists show 3,714
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:48 PM   #33
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Isn't Amendment 64 kinda like a 2012 Boston Tea Party?

I'd prefer Fed reclassification without taxation, school funding, etc but this is a start

P.S. Poking the fire evey once in a while stirs it up a bit...

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Old 10-26-2012, 06:49 PM   #34
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Jim and I agree on something. Someone buy a lotto ticket.
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
Jim and I agree on something. Someone buy a lotto ticket.

We agree that riding motorcycles is fun and shouldn't be outlawed.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:03 PM   #36
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So I have several thoughts on this issue.

1. the wife and I already voted, and voted No on it

2. a few of the reasons I voted No (oddly I think that it should eventually be legalized)

A. medical marijuana was a joke, it was an end run by the pro-pot crowd to allow pot users to fake illness/injury and smoke legally. I would bet a years salary that at least 50% of the MMJ crowd are fakers. I have a friend who's been smoking it since he was 18, he's never had an injury/illness in his life, yet he went to a Dr. who specializes in this and convinced him he had chronic back pain atnd pot alleviates it, he claimed he hurt his back snowboarding....he's never been on skis let alone a snowboard.

B. I've had several recent debates/arguments on other forums. The most common argument from them, it doesn't impair your driving or motor skills. When you point out cases where they are wrong, they will argue that something else caused it and not pot.

3. The man's name is Mike (not using his full name on here, although once I relate this story, some people might know him). May 5th, 2012 while riding his 3 week old chopper for the first time, he was hit head on. The kid that hit him, was 21 yrs old, and stoned out of his gourd on pot as well as having a car full of pot he was transporting. So much so that he didn't even know he hit him, witnesses had to stop him from trying to drive away. Mike spent the next 2 months and 20 days in the hospital. Almost 3 weeks of that he was in a coma. He had over a dozen surgeries during that time, including one that set a record for the amount of work surgeons had to do. His list of injuries: An aortic dissection for which he had heart surgery, an open pelvic fracture for whih...
c he had the largest open reduction internal fixation the Sweedish doctors have ever performed, a bladder injury, a severe scalp laceration (see photo), issues with the tracheotomy which he needed, cervical fusion of C5 through T2, left rib fractures, left humeral fracture, right radius fracture, and a fracture of his big toe.

He was given last rites the day he was brought in. He was readmitted to the hospital this morning because do to serious complications, he could not walk/get up with out help and is urinating blood. He has several pins, screws, plates, bolts holding his body together, if all goes well he might be able to start riding again in two years. According to the pro-pot crowd, marijuana had nothing to do with the accident, it was a fluke. The kid was driving on the wrong side of the road.

4. Legalizing marijuana will hurt the cartels in Mexico...really, and repealing prohibition would shut down moonshiners, yet ATF makes dozens of arrests every year of moonshiners, and it's 2012.

5. There is no legitamate way to determine in an instant, like a breathalyzer for alcohol if someone is under the influence during a traffic stop.

6. There is no set standard of what is considered under the influence, imparied, etc. and while the state has attempted to impose a standard, the pro-pot crowd has resisted claiming the number is arbitrary.

7. MMJ has been a borderline failure in some cities, with users blantantly and regularly violating the law. Including the prohibition on using the product at the point of purchase and then driving off. I have a friend who lives across the street from a facility in G. Junction, he regularly watches people go in, buy, and come out and smoke it in the parking lot and then attempt to drive off. He's watched a few good wrecks happen as a result. I've seen this on Broadway a few times, including watching one guy get in a car with a baggy that he bought from a facility, light up in the car (he was a passenger) and share the joint with the other 3 people in the car. Followed them from Alameda and Broadway to about Littleton Blvd and Broadway, by the time we got there, maintaining their lane was a joke for the driver. 911 was called and Littleton PD did stop them.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Narsisco Lopez View Post
Kids have been doing that since I was in high school... hell, since my dad was in high school. Legalization means regulation and taxation... and will fund education. Keeping it illegal just keeps those illicit dollars going to drug dealers and border wars.
I have some sympathy for this argument. Should it be legal? Tough freaking question because it comes down to is it harmful (studies have mixed results but a consensus is that it mildly affects intelligence, memory and attention) and how harmful does something have to be before it is illegal. Alcohol and Tobacco are harmful and legal. Lots of things are harmful and legal.

As a country we have to pass a law that pretty much covers 300 million people (minus any senators of course, or anyone that didn't inhale) and everyone reacts differently. I know folks I would happily get into a car with after they had been smoking all day and there are folks I wouldn't allow out of a padded room if they had been within 20 feet of a joint. I think the future is likely to include limited legalisation with safeguards against impairment whilst driving and working (in certain jobs). If folks want to sit on their back porch and smoke I have no issue with that, if they want to get in a car, you better be able to pass an impairment test just like for alcohol. If we do it sensibly then it could work out ok. It might even reduce crime but it does need to be done in a manner whereby it isn't the thin end of the wedge.

I believe strongly in peoples rights, but also in their responsibilities not to impinge on others freedoms and rights.
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We have the same trouble here. What I don't understand is If it's called tourist season, why can't I shoot them
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:14 PM   #38
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Something else to point out. I'm a truck driver, random testing for drugs/alcohol is a way of life. Sadly drug use among truckers has been on a slight uptick for the last few years, as has accidents related to this. We really don't need to add fuel to the fire.

In the Netherlands many of these drugs are legal, few years back on one of the trucking message boards, a member from Germany posted a link to statistics which showed a 60% increase in drug use among truck drivers, and a 90% increase in truck accidents inwhich these drugs were found in the drivers system in levels which showed they were a contributing factor.

Finally, I notice when people say no one has ever died from marijuana or that it doesn't effect your motor skills. Until such time as each and every person on the planet is exactly the same, has the exact same physical, mental, emotional, etc. makeup, this is a falicy. The same holds true with alcohol and prescription drugs. Few years back the trucking company I work for did one of these alcohol/driving classes you see on tv in conjunction with State Patrol. Where they have you drink and drive on a controlled course. One of my co-workers downed 6 beers, blew a .25 on the breathalyzer, yet continued to walk, talk, and drive like he was sober. While at the same time, another driver after 2 beers was under the table drunk. Until his back surgery in April, my father was taking 2 10/600mg percocets every 4 hrs, well over the maximum allowed doseage, for 2 years for pain alleviation. He could walk, talk, drive, work (he's an exterminator), climb ladders, etc. perfectly fine. He's also 5'10, 270 lbs, whereas my 5'2 140 lb wife is out cold after one percocet. For the record, from the time he was first issued the prescription, he was taking percs at that level.

So much for every drug effecting everyone the same.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:30 PM   #39
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You shouldn't work safety related jobs while high.

You shouldn't drive while high.

I agree with that.

I really don't think passing 64 will legalize marijuana in the state, but it will put more pressure on the feds to do something.

I also don't think legalizing it will get a lot more people smoking before work or driving while high.

People that do it now will probably still break the law.

People that don't smoke because it is against the law, probably won't get high and drive or go to a safety related job high.

This is a democracy. You can't outlaw everything that may lead to a bad outcome sometimes.

Part of having a democracy is taking chances.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:39 PM   #40
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A few states legalizing it won't make cartels, border wars, destructive no-knock raids, or innocent deaths go away. If local growers can't keep up with demand, and assuming federal law will prohibit any kind of interstate trade, supply will be tight and there will still be opportunity for the cartels. If anything the mix of legal and illegal, federal and state, could make law enforcement even more of a tangled, expensive nightmare...

I read an editorial the other day that made the argument that without the feds, purity standards, ensuring legality of importation and supply, tax collection, etc, would be difficult, if not impossible for isolated states alone to implement effectively. As much as I would like to champion state's rights on this issue I have to admit I agree with that stance.

I'm glad to see pot advocates being more honest, going beyond the wink and a nod 'medicine' argument- a positive for their cause. It may take a long time, but every time this appears on a ballot they've made a small, but perhaps inexorable step toward national legislation...

Not a hot-button issue for me, but I voted 'no'. This amendment isn't ready for prime time.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:24 PM   #41
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To your points:

1. You voted to spend more tax money on imprisonment, police busy work, end careers, and stereotype people. You voted to continue a policy that does not work, has not worked and will enrich cartels leading to more death and destruction.

2. Some people use the existing Pharma system to get well-some use it to get high, stay high or just stay addicted. Should we end the Pharma system? I can walk into my Doctors office right now for knee pain and walk out with a prescription. If I press my doctor, he will give me pretty much whatever I want.

3. Driving impaired with any drug, legal or otherwise, is illegal and against the law. There is no test for any Pharma drug in regards to driving-which should MJ be singled out? Either the cop believes the person is impaired or not. Your narrative proves nothing. Alcohol can be bought right now on the shelves. Three drinks of Vodka and I am drunk. Should we reinstate prohibition? Your narrative really proves that advanced medicine can overcome what once was a death blow. MJ isn't the bogeyman here-the user is.

Nobody is arguing that legalization will making driving impaired illegal. A little note on DUI's. It used to be if you were impaired, that was it. But that wasn't good enough-enough people weren't going to jail, getting higher rates of insurance and generally speaking-the people weren't scared enough. Out came "the test". So impaired or not, you are "drunk". Before you get all excited, a cop can bust you for .05 and screw with your life. People want a time machine to prevent drunk deaths-they believe the DUI test is that. People still drink and drive every week. ]]

4. Comparing gun toting cartels which chop off heads to a few rednecks in the backwoods is quite a stretch. Yeah, people still do illegal stuff. See point 3. You don't see cartels making moonshine, cutting down forests, dumping pesticides in the forest...etc. I think we can agree hard liquor laws are stupid and only serve to protect certain players.

5. Who cares? The body builds up resistance. Either a person is impaired or they are not. If they are a long term smoker, then they build up resistance. That has been proven. The washington initiative by the way does instill a bad idea into their law-DUI. Making instant criminals out of good people.

6. Call up any cop-they are the standard for impaired driving.

7. Is MMJ a failure because the user opts to use in the parking lot? Is Walgreens a failure if I pop some Oxycontin in the parking lot? If it's a problem, the cops enforce driving impaired by hanging out-just like they do around bars. Oh wait, if I pop some shots in the store parking lot-is prohibition the answer? You called the cop-case closed. Why is it different?


Your reasoning is based on fear, stereotypes and the long lost hope that banning something will make it go away. This has resulted in ruined lives, minorities imprisoned in extremely high rates, cartels becoming a force to be reckoned with while we sit back and say "if we just ban it, the problem will go away".

I hope you are happy with your choice.




Quote:
Originally Posted by colodak View Post
So I have several thoughts on this issue.

1. the wife and I already voted, and voted No on it

2. a few of the reasons I voted No (oddly I think that it should eventually be legalized)

A. medical marijuana was a joke, it was an end run by the pro-pot crowd to allow pot users to fake illness/injury and smoke legally. I would bet a years salary that at least 50% of the MMJ crowd are fakers. I have a friend who's been smoking it since he was 18, he's never had an injury/illness in his life, yet he went to a Dr. who specializes in this and convinced him he had chronic back pain atnd pot alleviates it, he claimed he hurt his back snowboarding....he's never been on skis let alone a snowboard.

B. I've had several recent debates/arguments on other forums. The most common argument from them, it doesn't impair your driving or motor skills. When you point out cases where they are wrong, they will argue that something else caused it and not pot.

3. The man's name is Mike (not using his full name on here, although once I relate this story, some people might know him). May 5th, 2012 while riding his 3 week old chopper for the first time, he was hit head on. The kid that hit him, was 21 yrs old, and stoned out of his gourd on pot as well as having a car full of pot he was transporting. So much so that he didn't even know he hit him, witnesses had to stop him from trying to drive away. Mike spent the next 2 months and 20 days in the hospital. Almost 3 weeks of that he was in a coma. He had over a dozen surgeries during that time, including one that set a record for the amount of work surgeons had to do. His list of injuries: An aortic dissection for which he had heart surgery, an open pelvic fracture for whih...
c he had the largest open reduction internal fixation the Sweedish doctors have ever performed, a bladder injury, a severe scalp laceration (see photo), issues with the tracheotomy which he needed, cervical fusion of C5 through T2, left rib fractures, left humeral fracture, right radius fracture, and a fracture of his big toe.

He was given last rites the day he was brought in. He was readmitted to the hospital this morning because do to serious complications, he could not walk/get up with out help and is urinating blood. He has several pins, screws, plates, bolts holding his body together, if all goes well he might be able to start riding again in two years. According to the pro-pot crowd, marijuana had nothing to do with the accident, it was a fluke. The kid was driving on the wrong side of the road.

4. Legalizing marijuana will hurt the cartels in Mexico...really, and repealing prohibition would shut down moonshiners, yet ATF makes dozens of arrests every year of moonshiners, and it's 2012.

5. There is no legitamate way to determine in an instant, like a breathalyzer for alcohol if someone is under the influence during a traffic stop.

6. There is no set standard of what is considered under the influence, imparied, etc. and while the state has attempted to impose a standard, the pro-pot crowd has resisted claiming the number is arbitrary.

7. MMJ has been a borderline failure in some cities, with users blantantly and regularly violating the law. Including the prohibition on using the product at the point of purchase and then driving off. I have a friend who lives across the street from a facility in G. Junction, he regularly watches people go in, buy, and come out and smoke it in the parking lot and then attempt to drive off. He's watched a few good wrecks happen as a result. I've seen this on Broadway a few times, including watching one guy get in a car with a baggy that he bought from a facility, light up in the car (he was a passenger) and share the joint with the other 3 people in the car. Followed them from Alameda and Broadway to about Littleton Blvd and Broadway, by the time we got there, maintaining their lane was a joke for the driver. 911 was called and Littleton PD did stop them.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colodak View Post
Something else to point out. I'm a truck driver, random testing for drugs/alcohol is a way of life. Sadly drug use among truckers has been on a slight uptick for the last few years, as has accidents related to this. We really don't need to add fuel to the fire.

In the Netherlands many of these drugs are legal, few years back on one of the trucking message boards, a member from Germany posted a link to statistics which showed a 60% increase in drug use among truck drivers, and a 90% increase in truck accidents inwhich these drugs were found in the drivers system in levels which showed they were a contributing factor.

Finally, I notice when people say no one has ever died from marijuana or that it doesn't effect your motor skills. Until such time as each and every person on the planet is exactly the same, has the exact same physical, mental, emotional, etc. makeup, this is a falicy. The same holds true with alcohol and prescription drugs. Few years back the trucking company I work for did one of these alcohol/driving classes you see on tv in conjunction with State Patrol. Where they have you drink and drive on a controlled course. One of my co-workers downed 6 beers, blew a .25 on the breathalyzer, yet continued to walk, talk, and drive like he was sober. While at the same time, another driver after 2 beers was under the table drunk. Until his back surgery in April, my father was taking 2 10/600mg percocets every 4 hrs, well over the maximum allowed doseage, for 2 years for pain alleviation. He could walk, talk, drive, work (he's an exterminator), climb ladders, etc. perfectly fine. He's also 5'10, 270 lbs, whereas my 5'2 140 lb wife is out cold after one percocet. For the record, from the time he was first issued the prescription, he was taking percs at that level.

So much for every drug effecting everyone the same.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:02 PM   #44
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So (and this is not a loaded question, I'm being totally genuine, a shock on the internet I know! )I personally don't have an answer but would love to hear your thoughts. How do we test fairly? I think it's in everyone's interests to have a fair test for impairment, it's just a case of figuring out what is fair, reliable and not open to abuse.

Any arbitrary chemical test won't take into account body size, tolerance levels etc and people will fall either side incorrectly, and any 'sobriety' style test will throw false results. Having witnessed plenty of these and failed one when stone cold sober (cop friend having a laugh) I can attest to them being pretty unreliable and also open to abuse from that small minority of LEO's who are less than perfect. Seriously, I can happily discuss the quaternary structure of haemoglobin, but ask me the alphabet backwards at 4am (or to be fair any time really) and I don't stand a chance. It's one hell of a tough situation to figure out and there will likely always be some small but notable level of abuse and error.
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Old 10-27-2012, 02:49 AM   #45
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