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View Results: Amendment 64: The Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol Act of 2012
Yes 102 73.91%
No 36 26.09%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:41 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
Ben, you are a drug rep for pharma so you are a "legal" drug dealer. As I understand it, legal marijuana is a huge threat the drug companies cash machine as people figure out marijuana works better for them than the artificial stuff. At least admit where your interests lie.

I could care less. Any drug I've ever repped has been covered by insurance and the majority of the population have been able to get a month's worth for a $20 co-pay. They can't get a month's worth of weed for $20. And weed doesn't help at all for high choloesterol, erectile dysfunction, hypertension, migraine, osteoporosis, acne, or any of the other top 15 "block buster" drug categories. And I can't even begin to tell you how many migraine patients left their traditional "artificial" therapies for MMJ only to come back to their traditional therapies a month later.

I'll tell you where I think marijuana and pharmaceutical therapies and be synergistic and work hand in hand and that is in nausea. A lot of traditional drug therapies are efficacious but cause nausea. The options are either phenergan or marijuana. Not everyone can tolerate phenergan so MJ is an excellent alternative there. Of course not everyone can tolerate MJ either.

And if you think I'm somehow opposed to the legalization of marijuana in Colorado, then you haven't really been reading this thread. I'm all in favor of the decriminilization process. What I question is the actual impact on taxes and the actual reduction in "black market" weed. I think we're creating, not eliminating a black market.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:46 PM   #512
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Follow the rabbit hole of corporate lobbyist for the drug companies (ie the powerful & controlling families of the world). They could not patent marijuana thus no monopoly thus let's outlaw it. And the cotton growers, the hemp fiber is superior to cotton but that is a huge threat so suppress it.

Marijuana is truly worse than morphine and equal to heroin?
Sure after alot of back door buttons have been pushed and payoffs paid.

Actually they could and did patent some marijuana. But that quote of mine from above that you used was not meant to imply that I think marijuana is "worse" than heroin or morphine in any way. That quote came from our earlier discussions about state's rights and questioning what will happen if a state legalizes marijuana, but the Fed government maintains it's status as a Sched I. I'm still curious about that one. Will the Feds try to "send a message" to Washington and Colo and attempt to try some cases and close some shops, or do they concede and simply look the other way. It will be interesting to watch what the AG does at the Fed level.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:08 PM   #513
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I won't post the text. Cliff notes: A little girl (7) with Leukemia is using it (not smoking it obviously) and is feeling better.

Regardless, as Ben has pointed out 7,658 times, Hash/Cannabis/MJ is still considered schedule 1 and is punishable under federal law despite MMJ laws passed in various states including ours despite the ignorance of many counties to forbid it (good Republican counties expect for CS.)

Minds, they are a changing. Let's just hope the government is willing to give up the power-and give it BACK to the people.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:16 PM   #514
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Actually they could and did patent some marijuana. But that quote of mine from above that you used was not meant to imply that I think marijuana is "worse" than heroin or morphine in any way. That quote came from our earlier discussions about state's rights and questioning what will happen if a state legalizes marijuana, but the Fed government maintains it's status as a Sched I. I'm still curious about that one. Will the Feds try to "send a message" to Washington and Colo and attempt to try some cases and close some shops, or do they concede and simply look the other way. It will be interesting to watch what the AG does at the Fed level.
Q. May someone patent a naturally occurring substance?
A. No, though a natural substance that has never been isolated or known may be patentable, but only in its isolated form (since the isolated form has never been known before). Even a slight variation of naturally occurring substances may be patentable if an inventor is able to demonstrate advantages of using the variant.


This is true of marijuana and also herbal remedies as they exist in nature. If you create a product that was originally marijuana but now has a slightly different molecular structure, it can receive a patent. The fact that big pharma isn't able to corner a market in this field because no real economic benefit exists contributes to the suspicion that they have a hand in its suppression. Whether or not that's true, it's been shown that pharmaceutical companies have repeatedly engaged in market manipulation and politicizing and manipulating the work of the FDA.
When I voted yes for 64 I knew that chaos would ensue but I hoped to push the discussion forward in spite of the mess. I'm damn tired of seeing people risking personal ruin because they smoked a joint and the gridlock that exists in Washington is not going to end soon so maybe states need to step up.
I can personally attest to marijuana's effectiveness in nausea related to cancer treatment. I've witnessed equally positive results in promoting appetite and relieving depression in patients with terminal illnesses.
If you study the history of marijuana becoming illegal in this country it's clear that the initial objections were racial and economic.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:17 PM   #515
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And if you think I'm somehow opposed to the legalization of marijuana in Colorado, then you haven't really been reading this thread. I'm all in favor of the decriminilization process. What I question is the actual impact on taxes and the actual reduction in "black market" weed. I think we're creating, not eliminating a black market.
"What's the point of making something "legal" in Colorado that is still illegal under frederal jurisdiction?

The FDA still says marijuana is a Schedule I drug. Until that changes, nothing really changes."

This is how you started out in this thread?

Aren't you an ultra-republican: states should have all the rights and the government needs to step away and shrink kinda guy?
Yet you're initial response to this whole thing is why the hell is Colorado doing this? Kinda confused if ya ask me.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:27 PM   #516
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This is my last post on this since I'd rather talk motorcycles and I really don't give a crap who smokes what or from where thy buy it. I really don't. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another and as a taxpayer, I'm thrilled that Colorado will be able to stop wasting my money by clogging up the courts and jails with petty drug marijuana posession charges.

My one concern is on the black market side. And my reaon for that concern is basic Econ 101. And it centers around one word: Taxes. Econ 101 says that as soon as you involve the government in to an area of the economy you get taxes. And when you get taxes, you artificially inflate the price of an item above it's normally occuring market driven price. Take gasoline for example. We all pay $3.00 at the pump. But gas doesn't sell for $3.00, it sells for $2.53. The other 47 cents is state and Federal taxes. If most of us could buy black market gasoline for $2.53 with minimal hassle, I bet we would. I bet we'd even pay $2.65 or $2.75. As long as it's less than $3.00 we'd consider it.

So taxes effect the price of things, but not the cost of things. And when the price of an item is driven up artificially by taxes, then black markets spring up and in many cases thrive. Because black market goods arent taxed. Some of you have doubted my "theory" that a stronger than ever black market will be born. But it's not a theory, it's an economic law and there are dozens of precedents.

The perfect example of what I'm talking about is cigaretes. Cigs are legal here in America, they have a legal minimum age of only 18, they are available in your local gocery store, yet there is a HUGE black market for cigarrettes in America. A multi billion dollar black market for cigarettes here in America. Why? Simple: states tax cigarrettes at different rates. Some states have a high tax and some have a relatively lower tax. Black market cigs find their way from low tax states to high tax states where they are sold at a price that generates a profit for the black marketer, but is still at a savings for the end user.

Before you call BS, please read the following articles. And no, they are not from some radical right wing blog. One is from the very liberal NPR.
Trade In Black-Market Cigarettes: Hot, Dangerous

by Carrie Johnson


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129934561

And
US States Target Black Market Cigarette Sales
Smuggling costs billions of dollars in lost tax revenues
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-st...74/162081.html

So the states that have the highest taxes encounter the most black market trafficking (with cigarettes.) Right now there is zero tax on marijuana in 48 of the states and a yet to be determined tax in two states: Washington and Colorado. In just a few months, we will become one of only 2 states to tax marijuana. How much will that tax be?

How many people who voted for Amendment 64 realized that Colo has a TABOR (Tax Payor Bill of Rights) which prohibits new taxed that have not been expressly voted for. We didn't vote for an specific tax amount. That means it will become a "fee" instead. Who knows how high that fee will be? We know it willbe higher than the fee for marijuana in a neighboring state like New Mexico. That have no legal marijuana and thus no legal fee. Whatever fee is charged to the MJ retailer will be passed on to the MJ consumer.

Read the black market cigarette articles and ask yourself why that same tax-driven black market wouldn't exist with marijuana in Colorado. There is a boat load of money to be made by those who don't have to charge taxes.

Now I'm going to tinker with motorcycles and a bicycle for the next few weeks.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:36 PM   #517
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:56 PM   #518
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Moonshine is available..... liquor stores in Colorado flourish and the government rakes in millions-maybe even billions.

There will ALWAYS be a black market and people will always avoid taxes (in general with a few exceptions) if they know they can. Only the lazy pay taxes and most of us are lazy and unwilling to stay ahead of the government. How does this change the argument for/against Hash?
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:53 AM   #519
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I still believe that black markets will have a harder time competing. Legal grow operations won't have to hide anymore,so they can utilize bigger facilities and have larger productions. Transportation costs will also be reduced because generally they will be setup in the regions they service. Just my opinion, but I don't see where black markets will be able to do produce at this level. If a facility is large enough to compete, the authorities would probably notice it as well, and would swoop in if the right paperwork wasn't in place...like i said before, i think the cartels would just switch to pushing the other drugs they have in their repertoire. They ain't just pot dealers. Drive up the demand on something else they control.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:59 PM   #520
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I still believe that black markets will have a harder time competing. Legal grow operations won't have to hide anymore,so they can utilize bigger facilities and have larger productions. Transportation costs will also be reduced because generally they will be setup in the regions they service. Just my opinion, but I don't see where black markets will be able to do produce at this level. If a facility is large enough to compete, the authorities would probably notice it as well, and would swoop in if the right paperwork wasn't in place...like i said before, i think the cartels would just switch to pushing the other drugs they have in their repertoire. They ain't just pot dealers. Drive up the demand on something else they control.
+1. Why take the effort to track down your "guy" to buy black market when such purchase might get you in trouble if he has more than one ounce and or you end up getting a gram more than one ounce and a LEO stumbles upon the transaction? I'll take the convenience of a local store, where i can safely and peacefully peruse the inventory and make a decision at my leisure. I want to pay taxes on it. Many do. It further legitimizes it, much the same as alcohol.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:56 PM   #521
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The traditional black market of marijuana cannot compete with the legit market on quality, period! Unless the cartel and illegitimate growers start pumping out medical grade buds (they won't, too much overhead and risk), no one's going to want to buy from them. Sure we don't know the exact taxes/fees yet but chances are they aren't going to be any worse than a high sales tax which many of us already get screwed with. So instead of $40 for the best 8th in the USA, it'll be $45. Whoop-dee-doo. For that same price, you could buy maybe as much as 4 times the amount of true black market bud if it's even available, but chances are it's not going to even come close to 1/4th the quality. So what's the point?

A way around the fees that will undoubtedly be pursued by many will be to purchase buds from commercial and/or medical suppliers "under the table", which will be especially easy if you can get to the actual grower. That sort of thing will essentially be tax evasion which I personally have absolutely no problem with. Regardless, this sort of "problem" or black market, if you want to call it that, is much more preferable over any sort of organized crime marijuana source and the legitimate problems associated with that where tax evasion is the least of the problems. As I've said in more than post before this, who gives a damn if this sort of black market exists? The state and local governments will but only because they are "losing money", what a tragedy.

But the idea that the black market that existed before MMJ and before A64 will continue to reap profits as it has before is just nonsense. Here's an economic law: in a free (legal) market, the greatest value wins. For the last few years MMJ has been bringing huge value to the table (low cost, insane quality) and the traditional black market has suffered because it can't compete with that. It can't get that quality period and if it could it would cost more than MMJ, probably a lot more. No one wants black market buds, not even high school kids and definitely not any experienced toker. It has no attraction, period. So when commercial growers start selling for prices similar to MMJ, even if the prices overall in the legit market (commercial and MMJ) increase a decent amount, black market bud still looks like a waste of time.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:21 PM   #522
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Moonshine is available..... liquor stores in Colorado flourish and the government rakes in millions-maybe even billions.

There will ALWAYS be a black market and people will always avoid taxes (in general with a few exceptions) if they know they can. Only the lazy pay taxes and most of us are lazy and unwilling to stay ahead of the government. How does this change the argument for/against Hash?
Wait.


What?
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:32 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
Moonshine is available..... liquor stores in Colorado flourish and the government rakes in millions-maybe even billions.

There will ALWAYS be a black market and people will always avoid taxes (in general with a few exceptions) if they know they can. Only the lazy pay taxes and most of us are lazy and unwilling to stay ahead of the government. How does this change the argument for/against Hash?
Who was arguing Hash? That's just marijuana's version of really strong alcohol right? I promise to not keep more than an ounce of it, although i would probably become very lazy and gladly pay the taxes on it...mmmm hash....
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:53 AM   #524
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The traditional black market of marijuana cannot compete with the legit market on quality, period! Unless the cartel and illegitimate growers start pumping out medical grade buds (they won't, too much overhead and risk), no one's going to want to buy from them. Sure we don't know the exact taxes/fees yet but chances are they aren't going to be any worse than a high sales tax which many of us already get screwed with. So instead of $40 for the best 8th in the USA, it'll be $45. Whoop-dee-doo. For that same price, you could buy maybe as much as 4 times the amount of true black market bud if it's even available, but chances are it's not going to even come close to 1/4th the quality. So what's the point?

A way around the fees that will undoubtedly be pursued by many will be to purchase buds from commercial and/or medical suppliers "under the table", which will be especially easy if you can get to the actual grower. That sort of thing will essentially be tax evasion which I personally have absolutely no problem with. Regardless, this sort of "problem" or black market, if you want to call it that, is much more preferable over any sort of organized crime marijuana source and the legitimate problems associated with that where tax evasion is the least of the problems. As I've said in more than post before this, who gives a damn if this sort of black market exists? The state and local governments will but only because they are "losing money", what a tragedy.

But the idea that the black market that existed before MMJ and before A64 will continue to reap profits as it has before is just nonsense. Here's an economic law: in a free (legal) market, the greatest value wins. For the last few years MMJ has been bringing huge value to the table (low cost, insane quality) and the traditional black market has suffered because it can't compete with that. It can't get that quality period and if it could it would cost more than MMJ, probably a lot more. No one wants black market buds, not even high school kids and definitely not any experienced toker. It has no attraction, period. So when commercial growers start selling for prices similar to MMJ, even if the prices overall in the legit market (commercial and MMJ) increase a decent amount, black market bud still looks like a waste of time.
Lotta periods in there. I don't claim to know the quality of CO MMJ vs. CO black market MJ, but I've got to believe a cartel with years of experience and billions of dollars on the line will make a product superior to that of a green (pun intended) newcomer. I do agree that the vast majority of sales will come from taxed, legal sales, because the quality is empirically proven to be satisfactory to the market, which, coupled with the convenience factor and the now absent risk of participating in an illegal transaction, will trump other market forces.

But that doesn't mean there won't be a black market. More people will grow their own simply because they can, and many will have a surplus beyond their needs. Many of them will sell it outside the legal market because they don't have enough to bother going into the legit MJ business with its regulations and hoops to jump through. They will have to sell it below the legal market price, because, for the reasons mentioned above, black market prices are lower. This phenomenon will occur regardless of the new law's effect on the market price. The downside is not the emergence of organized crime, but rather the fact that it makes criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens who would be selling a legal product.

Now, the new law will likely bring down the cost of production. This is true because the current cost of production includes a premium for the risk of getting caught (in the form of higher fees/profits for middlemen, the cost of detection avoidance, increased cost of manufacture associated with remote areas, over-utilization of electricity for light). Unless the fees and taxes are so great as to cover the gap between the new cost of production and the market price in neighboring states, the lower cost would encourage a black market, not in CO, but in other states whose citizens would see CO as a source of supply. Actually, I think you can expect the fees and taxes to be greater than the gap, because the taxing authorities know that the CO market will not switch to black market MJ until the price differential is so great that the black market product becomes preferable despite the risks and loss of convenience.

It's going to be fun to watch.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:01 AM   #525
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Our local Sheriff needs to resolve his rectal-cranial inversion.

The current fine is $100 for less than 2 ounces, there is an imminent repeal of the law (passed by a 10% margin), and he still is filing new charges.

His personal opinion:

“A lot of people will find out sooner than they realize that (Amendment 64) was written very deceptively,” Smith said.

“We have a constitution that’s become a joke in this state, that has day-to-day things put into it, making the constitution irrelevant as a guiding document,” he said.

Wonder when he comes up for reelection?
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