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View Results: Amendment 64: The Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol Act of 2012
Yes 102 73.91%
No 36 26.09%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:23 PM   #91
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There is no doubt in my mind that people will not get rid of their existing pain pills due to the much higher level of addiction than low level weed. People act like weed is the same level of addiction as meth or Heroine. Pharma that pushes pain pills is in the business of addicting their clients-weed isn't going to do that for users over the age of 25 on the same level.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides View Post
It makes perfect sense. If you can't make any money on it, it stands you reason that economic model dictates that you won't lose money by not doing it.

Also, your claim about the people throwing their pill bottles in the trash is not backed up by any empirical data what so ever. In the states that have MMJ laws, there has been absolutely zero decline in prescription meds in the disease states you just mentioned. Here in Colorado, legalizing medical marijuana has had no effect on prescription sales at all. Sales have been on the increase the past 4 years, and that is during a recession!

Why? Because as I've stated before: a) Prescription drugs actually work and patients want efficacy, b) many patients prefer dual therapy: Rx drug for major events, weed as a backup and c) prescription drugs are on many insurance formularies and weed is not. You can get many/most pain drugs with a $15 t0 $30 copay that will last a full month. How much weed can you get for $15??

Yu people crack me up. You say on one hand that Big Pharma companies area all about money and greed, then on the other hand you say that that Big Pharma doesn't know anything about the economics of the pain management market and somehow fears this other drug becoming legal.

I'm in pharma. Have been for 13 years. Have sat on many many product development/advisory comittees. Have called on pain management and neurology for the past 8 years. Many of my docs use weed in their personal lives and many have also written Rxs for MMJ for their patients for various indications. But NONE of their patients walk away from their other prescription drugs for a marijuana-only regimen. Like I said, if there was big money to be made in marijuana, Big Pharma would have been all over it 30 years ago.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:29 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
It's going to happen at some point...or we go under. The laws of economics will win out at some point no matter who much we hope they will not.

Or we sell off California to China. I kind of like that idea too.
Oh I don't disagree with anything you're saying in this specific regard...I'm waiting for our economy and therefore our society to collapse. I want it to happen. I just wanted to make sure you realized the practical consequences of your recommendations.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:37 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
There is no doubt in my mind that people will not get rid of their existing pain pills due to the much higher level of addiction than low level weed. People act like weed is the same level of addiction as meth or Heroine. Pharma that pushes pain pills is in the business of addicting their clients-weed isn't going to do that for users over the age of 25 on the same level.

Look, I'm in that industry and I can assure you that addiction is NOT in our best interest. You know what we are spending millions and millions of dollars on right now? Abuse-proof (or atleast abuse resistant) delivery systems.
The entire direction of opiods right now is to curb addiction, misuse and over use. The lastest thing to come to market is a delivery system in which the active ingredient is surrounded by inert/counter ingredient. If the pill is swalowed and disloved at body temperature with stomach acids then it works. If it is crushed, frozen or heated, then it becomes inert.
Prescription systems are in place in all 50 states to crack down on folks who "doctor shop" and try to get multiple prescriptions filled in the same month. The DEA is in the offices and of any and all of the "bigger" writers on a regular basis. The doctors themselves have nothing to gain by getting a patient addicted. They don't make money on the prescription, they only make it on the office visit and since their reimbursement is only about $15 to $30 on med check or refill visits, it's not really worth their time to try to get a patient addicted to anything. The drug companies can and do get sued if a person over doses, so the absolute last thing we want is have patients get addicted or to overdose. It's bad for business. Money gets wasted on litigation, and drugs get pulled from the market. It's like saying " Ford hopes their customers get in car wrecks and get killed or maimed. Those Big Auto companies love when that happens." No, it's very very bad for business. It is in our best interest for everyone who needs a particular drug to use that drug in as responsible manner as possible. Abuse, misuse, fraud, off label use and divergence are the enemy.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:39 PM   #94
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I'd say this is a more reasonable basis for a delayed interest in MMJ by pharmaceutical companies...




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Originally Posted by PKN Law
US Patent 6630507 was issued to “The United States of America as Represented by the Department of Health and Human Services” in 2001. In lay terms the patent extended to the DHHS is for a marijuana-based medicine, which is a troubling concept considering the government’s current stance on marijuana. However, the contradiction between today’s drug policies and the medical usefulness of cannabis are found in the first two sentences of the abstract that describes the patent claim:

“Cannabinoids have been found to have antioxidant properties, unrelated to NMDA receptor antagonism. This new found property makes cannabinoids useful in the treatment and prophylaxis of wide variety of oxidation associated diseases, such as ischemic, age-related, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases.” (1)

Contradiction aside, the patent gives the US government an exclusive right to manufacture this particular type of cannibinoid-based medicine until 2021. Therefore, even if there wasn’t an active drug war against the plant, obtaining the medicine or something similar would be virtually impossible.
Full blah here: http://patricknightingale.com/us-con...nnabis-patent/
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:46 PM   #95
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:46 PM   #96
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He didn't say addiction is in the best interest of big pharma...(so your entire response is pointless). But it's part of the dynamic, inevitably.
Millions of people are realizing, as I said before, that this plant, marijuana, can replace a few of their medications in some circumstances because the benefit-disadvantage ratio is higher for marijuana than it is for many prescriptions.

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Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides View Post
Look, I'm in that industry and I can assure you that addiction is NOT in our best interest. You know what we are spending millions and millions of dollars on right now? Abuse-proof (or atleast abuse resistant) delivery systems.
The entire direction of opiods right now is to curb addiction, misuse and over use. The lastest thing to come to market is a delivery system in which the active ingredient is surrounded by inert/counter ingredient. If the pill is swalowed and disloved at body temperature with stomach acids then it works. If it is crushed, frozen or heated, then it becomes inert.
Prescription systems are in place in all 50 states to crack down on folks who "doctor shop" and try to get multiple prescriptions filled in the same month. The DEA is in the offices and of any and all of the "bigger" writers on a regular basis. The doctors themselves have nothing to gain by getting a patient addicted. They don't make money on the prescription, they only make it on the office visit and since their reimbursement is only about $15 to $30 on med check or refill visits, it's not really worth their time to try to get a patient addicted to anything. The drug companies can and do get sued if a person over doses, so the absolute last thing we want is have patients get addicted or to overdose. It's bad for business. Money gets wasted on litigation, and drugs get pulled from the market. It's like saying " Ford hopes their customers get in car wrecks and get killed or maimed. Those Big Auto companies love when that happens." No, it's very very bad for business. It is in our best interest for everyone who needs a particular drug to use that drug in as responsible manner as possible. Abuse, misuse, fraud, off label use and divergence are the enemy.
Still waiting on your sources that show that marijuana has little therapeutic effect...
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:55 PM   #97
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You too high to read and comprehend......man?
No, I don't think he literally meant their business is creating addiction. They are in the business of selling addictive substances...addiction is going to happen. If that's what he meant, my bad, I can't speak for him. But I think it's fairly clear, based on what your response to him, that big pharma is NOT selling addiction (though I already knew that for the reasons you outlined, bad for business). I figured meterpig probably knows all this, too, and that he was just being a little edgy with his description of big pharma. Sorry I didn't clarify that, I figured you just understood the obvious. I really doubt meterpig think's big pharma's true strategic goals include increasing addiction in America, but he knows, as we all do, that in a sense, they are in the business of pushing addiction because that's the end result in many cases.


Still waiting on your sources about marijuana's minimal therapeutic effects...

And you still haven't explained why I am wrong, you've just implied it without a real, direct explanation...why Americans would NOT replace a decent portion of their medications with marijuana... why big pharma would NOT lose A TON if pot was legal.

Myfuture_yourdebt screwed with this post 10-29-2012 at 01:10 PM Reason: to keep this out of JM
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post
Still waiting on your sources about marijuana's minimal therapeutic effects...
Too drugged on pharmas to read that^? Cause you keep ignoring it...

And you still haven't explained why meterpig and I are wrong...why Americans will NOT replace a decent portion of their medications with marijuana...which is why big pharma would lose A TON if pot was legal.
^^^ I did explain it. In the states where medical mj use is approved there has been ZERO decline in prescription sales of pain meds, neuro meds, motor movement meds, etc, etc, etc. It has had no impact at all on pharma sales. In fact pharma sales have increased slightly in those classes despite an economic recession.

So you claim that Americans would replace a decent portion of their medications with marijuana, and the data claims they don't replace any portion of their medications with marijuana. Marijuana becomes an add-on or ancillary drug in their treatment regimin. Oh, and MeterPig is wrong just cus he's MeterPig

As far as the data, I'll look for it. It's in several research studies. I'm not sure of publications etc. One set of data came from a poster talk I attended, so that may never have been published, but it was a pretty large study (N=3,000+). Basically it said " Rate your pain on a scale of 1 to 10, and seperatly, rate how you are feeling on a scale on poor, fair, good or excellent."
Respondents in the opiods group would say at the hour mark, four hour mark and eight hour mark that their pain went down from an 8 (for example) to a 4, but said how the were feeling ranged from fair to maybe excellent, but mostly "good".

The mj patients (one group got edible form, others got smoke) all said they "felt" much better, usually good to excellent, yet they rated their actual pain as pretty much the same as before. In fact is was no different from the placebo group. And by the time you got to hour 4 and 8, the opiod group was still feeling better and their pain was controlled, but the mj group was starting to increase in pain (and required further dosing) and decreased in how they felt from good/excellen down to "good".

Bottom line is that opiods, whether real or synthetic, freaking work. No one denies that. Their side effects of constipation, nausea, addiction, etc are the price that some are willing to pay, but their merits as a pain management tool are rarely if ever disputed. New formulations now work up to 16 hours of theraputic level pain relief in a single dose.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:14 PM   #99
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If your pain was so minimal that you can be well managed on MJ, I'd venture to guess it could have been managed with Tylenol.

Perhaps you were never the ideal candidate for opiods or anything that serious. So good for you for getting away from potentially addictive agents and onto MJ. I mean that.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:17 PM   #100
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And who funds those studies about the therapeutic effects of marijuana?

And what percentage of pain patients of any degree are also MMJ patients?

Even if MMJ patients have zero effect on pharma sales, why would you expect that would scale in the same manner if a much larger portion of the population was using marijuana and realizing what it can do for them? In other words, if you are correct that MMJ patients have no effect on pharma sales, explain why things would look exactly the same after MILLIONS of more users begin experimenting and second guessing the traditional school of thought about "medication" (that it needs to come in a bottle and be approved by the FDA)
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:23 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post

Still waiting on your sources about marijuana's minimal therapeutic effects...

.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news...pain-treatment


https://www.achievesolutions.net/ach...ontentId=30981



And here is a really good and unbiased look at pain in general and various treatment options with an emphasis on marijuana. It's 77 pages long, but is an excellen background piece about pain in general.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=77
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:30 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post
And who funds those studies about the therapeutic effects of marijuana?

And what percentage of pain patients of any degree are also MMJ patients?

Even if MMJ patients have zero effect on pharma sales, why would you expect that would scale in the same manner if a much larger portion of the population was using marijuana and realizing what it can do for them? In other words, if you are correct that MMJ patients have no effect on pharma sales, explain why things would look exactly the same after MILLIONS of more users begin experimenting and second guessing the traditional school of thought about "medication" (that it needs to come in a bottle and be approved by the FDA)

You seem to be completely missing my pijt or completely ignoring the data already in existence about states that already have MMJ laws. There has been NO drop off in prescription sales in states that have MMJ. I don't know how else to say it to you or how much more slowly I can say it for you.

MMJ has become an ancillary drug, or an add-on drug, not the primary drug for those patients trying to manage pain, MS, movement disorders, etc. They were on Oxy (for instance) and now they are on Oxy and MMJ.


And once again, if it turns out that there's money to be made in medical marijuana (whether real or synthesized) then you'll see Big Pharma come out with some bubonic chronic available on formulary for $15/month and you'll see Snoop Dogg doing TV ads for Pfizer. Or Pfizzle.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:31 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by rat734 View Post
WOW you're good. You made that diagnosis from 443 miles away without knowing anything about me or my medical background. I'm gonna pay particular attention to your insightful posts. You must be really really smart and open minded.



What part of the word guess is eluding you?
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #104
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http://health.usnews.com/health-news...pain-treatment

^Study used only oral MMJ and for the treatment of only acute pain.
From the article:
"Recent studies have indicated that cannabis can be effective in treating certain types of chronic pain and helping patients to cope by improving quality of life."

https://www.achievesolutions.net/ach...ontentId=30981

^"New research reveals that 10 percent of fibromyalgia (FM) patients use marijuana for medicinal relief from symptoms such as widespread pain, fatigue and insomnia caused by this chronic illness. Findings published in Arthritis Care & Research suggest that patients who self-medicate with herbal cannabis have poorer mental health. While experts believe that cannabinoids may offer some therapeutic effect, they caution against any recommendations until psychosocial and health issues can be further clarified."
So what about those studies that show that marijuana has little therapeutic effect? Those "sources" did little to prove either way but they more so support my argument than your own...
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:37 PM   #105
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You seem to be completely missing my pijt or completely ignoring the data already in existence about states that already have MMJ laws. There has been NO drop off in prescription sales in states that have MMJ. I don't know how else to say it to you or how much more slowly I can say it for you.

MMJ has become an ancillary drug, or an add-on drug, not the primary drug for those patients trying to manage pain, MS, movement disorders, etc. They were on Oxy (for instance) and now they are on Oxy and MMJ.


And once again, if it turns out that there's money to be made in medical marijuana (whether real or synthesized) then you'll see Big Pharma come out with some bubonic chronic available on formulary for $15/month and you'll see Snoop Dogg doing TV ads for Pfizer. Or Pfizzle.
You somehow managed not to answer a single one of my very relevant questions (they do NOT stem from any misunderstanding of your posts):

And who funds those studies about the therapeutic effects of marijuana? Probably big pharma

And what percentage of pain patients of any degree are also MMJ patients? Probably very little in the big picture.

Even if MMJ patients have zero effect on pharma sales, why would you expect that would scale in the same manner if a much larger portion of the population was using marijuana and realizing what it can do for them? In other words, if you are correct that MMJ patients have no effect on pharma sales, explain why things would look exactly the same after MILLIONS of more users begin experimenting and second guessing the traditional school of thought about "medication" (that it needs to come in a bottle and be approved by the FDA)

My point is that, even if you're right about MMJ effects on pharma sales, there is little reason to believe that pharma sales would still be untouched when MILLIONS of Americans are using marijuana.
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