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View Results: Amendment 64: The Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol Act of 2012
Yes 102 73.91%
No 36 26.09%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2012, 05:26 PM   #121
Myfuture_yourdebt
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Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides View Post
Your article proves my point exactly.
Big Pharma could have and would have brought a "pharmaceuticl grade" marijuana to market anytime it wanted to over the last 40 years. And someday they might do it. And it might be synthetic or it might be the organic version. Early ACE inhibitors were nothing more than snake venom. Actual snake venom. Pharma found sources for genuine snake venom and put it into delivery systems that were safe and effective for humans. They didn't need to synthisize anything in order to make a profit or hold a patten. Pharma can make money on organic compounds just like anyonje else.

But the data has shown over and over again that the therapuetic value of MJ is relatively low. Patients on MJ claim they feel better (for short periods of time) yet they don't rate their actual pain scores any lower than placebo.

If there was big money to be made in pharma grade MJ, the pharma companies would have been all over it decades ago. One thing Big Pharma is good at is identifying ways of making money, then making it.


So keep this scenario in mind: Let's say pot gets legalized in Colo or in all 50 states. Why would Big Pharma care? They'd just come out with their own strains that are FDA approved, side effect minimized, approved and embraced by your local doctor, AND on insurance formualry. Their marketing would ask the consumer to consider pharma grade, approved weed that they can get for a $15 co-pay, or trust some ditch weed being sold down the street by your kid's unemployed friend. That's how they'd market it.
Still waiting on these sources that show that marijuana consistently has little therapeutic effect on a diversity of patients...thereby reasonably proving your belief that marijuana could never replace any existing pharmaceutical for patients of any ailment.

And there's one little problem about your belief that big pharma could make big $$$ on marijuana...Big pharma could patent some marijuana plants and medications if legalized, but they would have to compete with weeds that can be grown practically anywhere by practically anyone. They do not want to compete like that. As if that wasn't enough of a problem for big pharma, many people wouldn't want to buy it from them for a variety of reasons. Think Monsanto and GMOs...the same people that don't like MSG and processed foods aren't going to want pharma pot. The number of people waking up to the nastiness of big food and big pharma is only growing. Also, if legalization helps the economy like it may be able to, it'll be through grass roots efforts of marijuana cultivation (i.e. buying from your neighbor), not big pharm making massive profits and trickling down pot revenues.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:28 PM   #122
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While you guys have been focusing on Big Pharma as the opponent, I think you are missing the real issue: Breweries. I think legalizing pot would put a big dent in the liquor business.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:38 PM   #123
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In a effort to actually further the thread...

If you thought marijuana intoxication was just like alcohol intoxication when it comes to driving, think again:
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Driving
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:41 PM   #124
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While you guys have been focusing on Big Pharma as the opponent, I think you are missing the real issue: Breweries. I think legalizing pot would put a big dent in the liquor business.
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Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post
Don't even get me started on how much the tobacco and alcohol industries stand to lose from legalization of marijuana.
Legalization would reduce binge drinking, IMO. Nothing will ever completely replace alcohol and tobacco in America. That's why I think those industries have a lot to lose, too, but not as much.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:42 PM   #125
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To your points:

1. You voted to spend more tax money on imprisonment, police busy work, end careers, and stereotype people. You voted to continue a policy that does not work, has not worked and will enrich cartels leading to more death and destruction.
you don't fight a war where 1/2 of the combatants hands are tied behind their backs by lawyers, politicians, and buffons while the other half does what it wants.

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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
2. Some people use the existing Pharma system to get well-some use it to get high, stay high or just stay addicted. Should we end the Pharma system? I can walk into my Doctors office right now for knee pain and walk out with a prescription. If I press my doctor, he will give me pretty much whatever I want.
and your Dr. should loose his license as a result, I watched this for 2 yrs with my own father who was taking significantly more percocets than allowed by law and the Dr. was filling the prescription as such. It took me 8 mos. to figure out how much of the crap he was taking and then for how long. If had had my way, our family Dr. would be out in the cold.


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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
3. Driving impaired with any drug, legal or otherwise, is illegal and against the law. There is no test for any Pharma drug in regards to driving-which should MJ be singled out? Either the cop believes the person is impaired or not. Your narrative proves nothing. Alcohol can be bought right now on the shelves. Three drinks of Vodka and I am drunk. Should we reinstate prohibition? Your narrative really proves that advanced medicine can overcome what once was a death blow. MJ isn't the bogeyman here-the user is.

Nobody is arguing that legalization will making driving impaired illegal. A little note on DUI's. It used to be if you were impaired, that was it. But that wasn't good enough-enough people weren't going to jail, getting higher rates of insurance and generally speaking-the people weren't scared enough. Out came "the test". So impaired or not, you are "drunk". Before you get all excited, a cop can bust you for .05 and screw with your life. People want a time machine to prevent drunk deaths-they believe the DUI test is that. People still drink and drive every week. ]]
As I stated, until there is a close to full proof roadside test for DUI with pot as their is with alcohol, it should not be legallized. .05 would be a luxury, if you have a CDL it's .04 regardless of the type of vehicle you were stopped in.

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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
4. Comparing gun toting cartels which chop off heads to a few rednecks in the backwoods is quite a stretch. Yeah, people still do illegal stuff. See point 3. You don't see cartels making moonshine, cutting down forests, dumping pesticides in the forest...etc. I think we can agree hard liquor laws are stupid and only serve to protect certain players.
no the cartels and gangs setup pot grows in the National Forest and risk the lives of innocent hikers, bikers, and those who protect the forests. 90% of the pot grows found on National Forest land are traced back to cartels or gangs.

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Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
5. Who cares? The body builds up resistance. Either a person is impaired or they are not. If they are a long term smoker, then they build up resistance. That has been proven. The washington initiative by the way does instill a bad idea into their law-DUI. Making instant criminals out of good people.
then should we do away with all impairment standards? since every person is different? by your own comment, 3 drinks of Vodka and your drunk, 3 drinks of vodka and I'm still fine. Should the AMA then allow drug/alochol users into races? What about NASCAR? F1?, Indy? SCCA? Next trail ride do you want to ride next to someone who has done either prior to riding?




Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterPig View Post
7. Is MMJ a failure because the user opts to use in the parking lot? Is Walgreens a failure if I pop some Oxycontin in the parking lot? If it's a problem, the cops enforce driving impaired by hanging out-just like they do around bars. Oh wait, if I pop some shots in the store parking lot-is prohibition the answer? You called the cop-case closed. Why is it different?

Your reasoning is based on fear, stereotypes and the long lost hope that banning something will make it go away. This has resulted in ruined lives, minorities imprisoned in extremely high rates, cartels becoming a force to be reckoned with while we sit back and say "if we just ban it, the problem will go away".

I hope you are happy with your choice.
very happy with my choice.

Again, go back to my early comment, you don't fight a war on something by hamstringing 1/2 of the combatants with lawyers and niceties.

No, my reasoning is based on things I've seen and exp. in my life. I know more people who have been in rehab for trying to shake pot than for alcohol. In HS, I had a circle of 20 friends who we partied on the weekends, 2 never touched any drugs/alcohol, they didn't need it to be the life of the party. One is now deceased from cancer (which he tried pot for pain and it did nothing), the other is now a Baptist minister. Of the remaining 18, 6 alcohol only, 7 were pot only, the other 5 did both or other drugs. Of the 18 of us, 2 are deceased from drugs/alcohol, one drank himself to death, the other did pot and thought he was an Eagle, off a 10 story building. Of the remaining 16, 12 have been to rehab, all 5 of those who did both, 4 of the pot only, and 3 of the alcohol only. The one woman who did pot only has been in rehab three times and still admits she has a problem, she lost her kid in her divorce because she couldn't shake it and preferred to get high. Yes, there are those who do alcohol and have the same issue, so it's not a perfect example.

As for prohibition, I wouldn't care, yes I still drink, as I type this I'm having my first alcohol in over three months. Hell I throw away more beer than I drink and the hard stuff, well I have a bottle of whiskey and a bottle of gin. Both are at least 10 yrs old and better than 3/4 full. So it wouldn't matter to me.

BTW, when the MMJ law was passed, it specifically includes a prohibition on the use of the stuff in the parking lot or on the premsis of the retailer. Should Oxy be treated the same, yes, as should anything that impairs your motor skills in such manner.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:43 PM   #126
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Yeah, like I'm supposed to actually read every post? I came into this discussion late and intend to rehash old subjects and let the OP point out what I missed. It's just easier that way.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:48 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Myfuture_yourdebt View Post
If you thought marijuana intoxication was just like alcohol intoxication when it comes to driving, think again:
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Driving
interesting link, especially when it constantly contradicts itself regarding the impairments
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:50 PM   #128
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MMJ facilities were closed by vote in late 2010. Just sayin . . . .
Apparently not all of them, I drive through Montrose every two weeks and I know of two in MOntrose that are open, both are along 550.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:10 PM   #129
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interesting link, especially when it constantly contradicts itself regarding the impairments
You may have noticed the plurality of sources (18, in that particular section, I believe) that don't have to necessarily agree with each other about everything. That website is only an aggregate of sources. The website's authors, looking to provide facts and qualified (researched) opinion, specifically avoid cherry-picking the available evidence...instead choosing simply to present everything for our viewing pleasure.

But those sources do point to a general consensus: typical marijuana intoxication is nowhere near as dangerous as typical DUI impairment. It's still dangerous...but no more so than using your phone in any manner while driving.

Myfuture_yourdebt screwed with this post 10-29-2012 at 06:29 PM
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:18 PM   #130
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Apparently not all of them, I drive through Montrose every two weeks and I know of two in MOntrose that are open, both are along 550.
Is Montrose in Grand Junction?
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by colodak View Post
you don't fight a war where 1/2 of the combatants hands are tied behind their backs by lawyers, politicians, and buffons while the other half does what it wants.



and your Dr. should loose his license as a result, I watched this for 2 yrs with my own father who was taking significantly more percocets than allowed by law and the Dr. was filling the prescription as such. It took me 8 mos. to figure out how much of the crap he was taking and then for how long. If had had my way, our family Dr. would be out in the cold.




As I stated, until there is a close to full proof roadside test for DUI with pot as their is with alcohol, it should not be legallized. .05 would be a luxury, if you have a CDL it's .04 regardless of the type of vehicle you were stopped in.



no the cartels and gangs setup pot grows in the National Forest and risk the lives of innocent hikers, bikers, and those who protect the forests. 90% of the pot grows found on National Forest land are traced back to cartels or gangs.



then should we do away with all impairment standards? since every person is different? by your own comment, 3 drinks of Vodka and your drunk, 3 drinks of vodka and I'm still fine. Should the AMA then allow drug/alochol users into races? What about NASCAR? F1?, Indy? SCCA? Next trail ride do you want to ride next to someone who has done either prior to riding?






very happy with my choice.

Again, go back to my early comment, you don't fight a war on something by hamstringing 1/2 of the combatants with lawyers and niceties.

No, my reasoning is based on things I've seen and exp. in my life. I know more people who have been in rehab for trying to shake pot than for alcohol. In HS, I had a circle of 20 friends who we partied on the weekends, 2 never touched any drugs/alcohol, they didn't need it to be the life of the party. One is now deceased from cancer (which he tried pot for pain and it did nothing), the other is now a Baptist minister. Of the remaining 18, 6 alcohol only, 7 were pot only, the other 5 did both or other drugs. Of the 18 of us, 2 are deceased from drugs/alcohol, one drank himself to death, the other did pot and thought he was an Eagle, off a 10 story building. Of the remaining 16, 12 have been to rehab, all 5 of those who did both, 4 of the pot only, and 3 of the alcohol only. The one woman who did pot only has been in rehab three times and still admits she has a problem, she lost her kid in her divorce because she couldn't shake it and preferred to get high. Yes, there are those who do alcohol and have the same issue, so it's not a perfect example.

As for prohibition, I wouldn't care, yes I still drink, as I type this I'm having my first alcohol in over three months. Hell I throw away more beer than I drink and the hard stuff, well I have a bottle of whiskey and a bottle of gin. Both are at least 10 yrs old and better than 3/4 full. So it wouldn't matter to me.

BTW, when the MMJ law was passed, it specifically includes a prohibition on the use of the stuff in the parking lot or on the premsis of the retailer. Should Oxy be treated the same, yes, as should anything that impairs your motor skills in such manner.

You seem very angry. Are you talking about the war on drugs?? Yeah we should do away with lawyers and due process. Take away all freedoms for the common good while we are at it. People shouldn't be able to make choices, and be responsible for their actions. If it was legal the cartels wouldn't be in the business anymore.

As far as a roadside test, do you mean like this??


By the way I don't smoke or ingest pot.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:29 PM   #132
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Again, go back to my early comment, you don't fight a war on something by hamstringing 1/2 of the combatants with lawyers and niceties.
Yeah! Just think what would have happened in Vietnam, The Gulf War, The War on Terror, The Second Iraq War, and the War in Afghanistan had we done that.

Oh.

Wait.


All you people arguing about the merits or demerits of weed are absurd, people want it legalized so they can get high. You don't even have to smoke it for that to happen so the whole smoking causes cancer argument is ridiculous . Idiots who make poor life choices and drive impaired will do so regardless, people with a proclivity for substance abuse will abuse, people who can't be bothered to pay their bills on time or go to church or like the color purple or what the fuck ever wont. The medium doesn't alter the behavior, regardless of its legality or mass availability.

For every person who smoked and jumped off a building because they thought they were an eagle there is a story of someone who smokes and graduated at the top of their class or runs a successful business or are a top performing athlete.

The bottom line is do we want to keep wasting money on a flawed campaign against a plant while limiting the freedom of choice of supposedly responsible adults or maybe try something different since the current legal stance doesn't seem to be working? It's too bad we can't come up with some perfect solution where the tax issue is handled in a manner which makes everyone happy, but whether it's implemented as an ordinance or an alteration to the state constitution someone is going to be put out. Just take a trip down to inmates and read some of the marriage threads and you'll see it's pretty rare to even get two people to agree on how to live in the same house together with minimal conflict.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:49 PM   #133
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....unless you have some evidence that proves or even suggests a link between the effects of MMJ on big pharma and the effects of legalization on big pharma!?
^^^
Yes, this.

Do this.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #134
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8.5% is still a HUGE sample size.


So anyway put up or stfu. The ball is in your court and all you do with is ask the exact same gd questions over and over and over.
Show some evidence that legalized Marijke hurts pharma sales.
Illegal marijuana sure as hell hasn't hurt sales. Pharma companies are doing pretty well. Now add taxes and licenses and layers of regulation to the cost of what you're currently paying your guy and show me some evidence where that would hurt prescriptions. Find another country as an example of you must

You made the claim not back it up or back off.
Your play.
Seriously? No the ball is not in my court, because that sample has NO PROVEN RELEVANCE. I already said I don't have evidence of anything but I do have beliefs. You were the one who wanted to stomp all over them with your "proof" which, again, is almost completely irrelevant. And way to not address my other posts which tore apart your assumptions about big pharma making profits off of their own pot offerings.

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^^^
Yes, this.

Do this.
Your argument hinges directly on that evidence, therefore it is your burden. Don't worry, I know you won't respond with actual evidence supporting your argument.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:58 PM   #135
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Yeah, like I'm supposed to actually read every post? I came into this discussion late and intend to rehash old subjects and let the OP point out what I missed. It's just easier that way.




Well played.
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