Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin? Is there a market for it?

[Idle]

A parallel twin isn't going to happen at KTM. So a V-twin it is.

Highland makes a 300 pound v-twin bike, so it is definitely possible.

Oh looky, there's only one front brake! You're gonna die! But the caliper isn't ever grounding out mounted that high.

[Tee2]

Originally Posted by wilmar13

Oh bugger off! Seriously, there are already a million lame bikes... A REAL off road bike needs to have real suspension. Buy a f650gs if you are short and need to flat foot it.

Hey I was just replying to Schannulleke's message that a lower bike would fit into his 7 bike one engine platform. I have no need for a low bike. I can flat foot my 990. Now I wish I went with the R, but I ride a lot of two-up and thought the ABS would be helpful.

I knew a guy that rode a lowered f650. He would buy a 990 in a heartbeat if he could get it low enough.

I hope KTM makes a 700-800 twin. It would be cool.

[Bob599]

The 640 Adventure weighed 350 pounds so why couldn't KTM build a similar bike with an extra cylinder for another 10-15 pounds. Or the same weight with a more modern design. This does not even sound like a stretch.

I would buy one and park it between my 530 EXC and the soon to be added 1190 Adventure. I originally thought the 950 ADV would replace the dirt bike and road bike, but it was just too much bike for some riding. I was so excited when I first saw the 690 Rally thinking it would make it to full production but seem that will never happen. I have spent some time on 690's but not that much on the highway plugging along. I have been told by enthusiastic and reputable sources on the other thread that the 690 is not the motor for this new bike. I really am excited about this thread and the highland motor idea.

[sideup]

I would love it if KTM would build it but if they will not how about a HP 800 based on the F800GS platform. A no compromised off road machine from BMW. Or even a husqvana branded adventure bike.
I am not familiar with the bmw motor. Just seems like KTM will take years to deliver.
I better sit down cause I just stated this the Orange Crush section.
I do own 3 orange bikes.

[toowheels]

YES! Absolutely I'm in for a lighter 700-800cc machine. I'll also gladly trade a little power for better range and reliability.

While we're at it keep the superfluous (and brittle) plastic for the street bikes...use dirt bike plastic unpainted. Single rotor is fine with me including for two up loaded use. Keep the tank low, the subframe strong, the passenger pegs bolt-on etc...

I still hear grumblings from those in the know about this bike....

Dave

[genghis9021]

. . . an engaging motorbike, whatever it's target application(s) or customer(s).

Maybe it's because I spend too much time analyzing numbers for a living but . . . requirements ? These specifications for "smaller & lighter" are largely a reaction to the pachyderm's masquerading as "adventure" bikes in the market.

But numbers are a bit of a trap, too. Just sit around a bunch of Japanese 600 sportbike riders or watch one of their forums. The bench racing is incredible. A never ending arms race with almost NO discussion of the things many if not most riders get on a bike for . . . sense of engagement, freedom, sensation.

The best 600 (whatever that is) doesn't change the truism that "it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow".

KTM's venerable 950/990 win few bench races. The GS has lost alot of weight and has more power. But the RIDING experience . . . (minus the awful KTM windscreen) . . . hard to enter "smile factor" in a spreadsheet.

The "new" bike should be fun, not an assembly of numbers or "desired" specifications. It should inspire, not impress. 80 HP ? Don't know where you're gonna use that in the dirt. Lower weight ? Sounds good. Love my ADV but riding solo in remote areas . . . one picks lines very carefully. On the 5th pickup it's a bit tiring or worse.

The CofG should be low. My DRZ feels heavier at slow speed than my ADV. The riding experience and it's application is alot more important than the numbers, purely. It's a motorbike - no one NEEDS one in the western world.

SOHC ? Think you could still build a competitive engine in terms of power, maintenance and engagement ? The current LC8 certainly meets those requirements for anyone whose ridden one.

Finally, whose gonna buy this bike ? The 7-bike platform is great IF the base is actually appealing. I live near a jungle in northern Thailand and have a house in a silly remote area of the Sierra in northern CA. Few riders live near their destinations. The bike has got to have decent fuel and oil-change capacity because it's going to see tarmac. There are some difficult requirements to reconcile. The only easy way for many of them is a recognition of physics, particularly inertia. Get the weight DOWN and LOW.

Would I buy a V-twin (probably not a parallel twin - those motors have not put many smiles on my face), that weighed 350 WET, with a single 320mm disc and at least enough of a sub-frame to support soft luggage (really, who even wants hard bags for "real adventure") . . . oh, that had 75HP ?

In a heatbeat. My guess is that market is REALLY small. Where (and how often) can you use it and how many actually would. Plus, that bike actually puts expectations, not affectations on the rider's image. That's not a recipe for sales success in the world I live in.

[yellowbronco]

Returning to one of the original questions posed in this thread - "Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin?" The quick answer is "absolutely".

Let's look at recent history. Between 2000 and 2005 KTM had only two four stroke single dirtbike engines. The LC4 and the RFS. Since then they've developed the 250SXF/XCF/XCFW engine, The 350SXF/XCFW, the 450SXF/505SXF, the 450/530 XCW/EXC, the "Dungey" 450/500 EXC, the 690 LC4, and, somewhat indirectly, the 70 degree Husaberg engine. They've proven that they're willing, and able, to design engines that are somewhat optimized for the target markets. A 700 to 800cc twin would be a piece of cake for them, especially if they take an approach that maximizes parts commonality and base the engine off of a single that they're already producing.

A similar thing can be said about the frame technology based on the evolution of the dirtbikes. Plenty of frames have been developed in recent years starting in 2005 - oval frame tubes/no link PDS, flatter section oval frame tubes/PDS, MX bikes with a linkage and enduro bikes with PDS, trellis frames for the 690 and the twins, etc. Can they produce a frame for this 700 to 800cc machine? Absolutely! Especially considering that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to develop it from the current 690 chassis.

Can they adorn this bike with the bad ass-looking rally bodywork that is found on so many rally bikes they produce? Absolutely! The tooling is already available if they base the whole thing off of the 690 chassis. As an extra bonus, they'll get more use out of tooling that's just laying around now anyway.

The big question is, will they build it? That ties in with the second question posed by Mr. LucasM. "Is there a market for it?"

The answer is - Absolutely! I feel 100% confident that KTM will make a push for the 800cc adventure bike market. However, as they've proven with the 1190, will the bike they produce be the bad-ass rally bike we're discussing here, or will it be a bike that's better positioned to compete with the BMW and Triumph 800's? Will they follow through on their claim that the 1190 engine is a modular platform capable of displacements from 700cc to 1200cc and destroke/debore the RC8 engine resulting in a middleweight machine that's saddled with engine internals much bulkier than they need to be?

The fact is that there are too few individuals who can really ride this lighter, more edgy competition machine to justify KTM going in that direction. Mark my words, it'll be a lower, heavier bike with less wheel travel, ABS, dual front disks, under-engine exhaust with minimal protection, street tires...and a friggin BEAK!

[traveltoad]

Why 700-800cc?

Why not a production version of the 450 Rallye with a 550-600cc motor. Now that would be my kind of adventure bike.

[AZ-Twin]

So the 950/990 was originally built for the Dakar back in the day. It seems like all the small bikes align with some racing class. How many bike models does KTM currently manufacture that do not align with some racing class or series?
With the 1190 being released which is not a racing bike, I wonder if they would even be interested in another class of consumer bike with no direct racing application.

I like the sound of the bike LukasM proposes. And the class exists with the F800GS, Tiger 800XC, and to some extent that new Honda NC700X.

Would they build it I think is the real question.

[tijuana]

it would be the ideal replacement for the XRR. same weight, more power, more gears, more brakes.
Whats important, is that I can pick it up, alone, in the mud, sand before anyone notices I spilled.

[DesertSurfer]

If I've said it once... I've said it 1000 times!!!

He'll yes... I'd buy a KTM 790RR. Who the hell wouldn't?

But this is what I've been hoping for, for years.

And I'm sure it will eventually happen, once the global economy steps up.

I waiting a very long time for my 950 S... which in my eyes was a better more modern design to the Africa Twin... that I was never given access to.

As I've also vocalized to often....The 9xx will continue to get heavier to it's owner from day one because of good old Father Time... trust me.

[Night Falcon]

I'm not that interested in an V twin. I think the 690 engine is an absolute cracker with more than enough grunt for most ADV riders needs. The 690 already ticks alot of boxes as it is; for me it isn't about more power so much as a better setup. A 690 engine in a 640adv format

KTM know enough about the 690 now to elimiate its few reliability issues. Everything is there already to produce a modern lightweight, high tech, quality, purpose built adv bike with 80's Honda like dependability and ease of maintainance. That bike, if it ever gets built, could stand the adv market on its head....the frustrating thing is KTM are soooo close to it with the 690E/R but they pulled the cutain before the final act

[Jonny955]

Sure they could build it....but who would they sell it to?

• Touring riders? They'll prefer more luggage capacity, weather protection, passenger accomodation and a bigger tank = more weight
• Hard core trail/enduro riders? Do they really want more power, weight and thirst than the 690?
• Dual sport 'one bike does it all' riders? Maybe but they'll need a mix of the above
• Adventure bike buyers on a budget? If they don't want to spend up to 990 or 1190 levels, would they be prepared to pay sky-high prices for top-spec lightweight construction?

It does appear that the market appeal is for those who want to ride trails and can put up with a little more weight because it means they have better high-speed comfort to get to there. I'd like to see KTM make something like this but in order to make it marketable in 2013 for global sales, they would end up adding so much to the original concept that it would simply be a lower powered 990 Adventure that is just a little bit lighter and more manageable.

Look at the price point between the F800GS/Tiger 800XC and the R1200GS/Tiger Explorer. If KTM tried to sell this bike at a competitive level with the 800s they would need volume sales.

Jon

[BartG]

Instead of ALWAYS talking about what is not made by KTM, buy 1 that is!!

You want a lighter ADV bike, KTM has just what you need. Slap some soft luggage on the back (sure, its not huge weight it can carry but enough for camping).

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=750392

I`m pretty sure some of you will now explain why this is not good enough?

[LukasM]

Originally Posted by BartG

Instead of ALWAYS talking about what is not made by KTM, buy 1 that is!!

You want a lighter ADV bike, KTM has just what you need. Slap some soft luggage on the back (sure, its not huge weight it can carry but enough for camping).

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=750392

I`m pretty sure some of you will now explain why this is not good enough?

Our family has 8 KTM bikes in the garage so we buy enough of those that they already make, don't worry.

We've also adressed the shortcomings of the 690 engine in the other thread but let me recap it for you:

- Close ratio 6-speed was made for supermoto use where it works well (or for a race bike), sucks balls for an adventure bike.
- This makes it vibey and tiring to ride at highway speeds (even with a fairing) if you gear it low enough for off road.
- Spotty reliability track record, I don't know any (except Sherri Jo who babies the bike) that went over 50k without failures (countershaft balancer bearings, rockers, transmission gears, piston rings etc).

Other than that a chassis in that size and with that kind of rally/adventure setup (or original 690 Rally parts) would be ideal for me. The luggage capacity is fine once you upgrade the tank mounting hardware, with the right racks you can even fit hard luggage (which I'm not interested in).