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Old 11-15-2012, 11:52 AM   #16
GRIZ
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Numerical/quantitative evidence and a statistical analysis of events showing a trend that one model has more instances of warranty induced repair would help bolster your claim.
WTF???
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:45 PM   #17
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Here's some of that there Numerical/quantitative evidence......

Less than 1000 miles on the R1200GS





Stick that in your statistical analyzer.........
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:11 PM   #18
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There's one failure, so naturally they all fail...wonderful logic.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:34 PM   #19
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Being dismissive is not the type of response one would hope for from a dealer. I've owned two R1200s and do all my maintainince. I know the difference between an example and a pattern and also know the difference between a genuine wish to discuss issues versus the desire to spew the party line; and to throw in a touch of smart ass.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:32 PM   #20
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Quit complaining. You've owned two R1200s. I was deemed not worthy to be allowed to buy one.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:48 AM   #21
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Oh good one

Hang on guys. Give me a minute to make a sandwich and get a coke.
This is gonna be a good discussion.

I own a 2002 1150 and a 2010 1200. I'll just sit back and listen to your comments while I wait to see
which one breaks first.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akrider View Post
Hang on guys. Give me a minute to make a sandwich and get a coke.
This is gonna be a good discussion.

I own a 2002 1150 and a 2010 1200. I'll just sit back and listen to your comments while I wait to see
which one breaks first.
A coke!?!?!?
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:11 AM   #23
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Didn't mean to cause a fight, 2010 R1200GSA FD oil

I didn't intend this thread to start a bash the dealer session or bash anyone session for that matter. It does appear however that there are some very strong feelings about these potential final drive failures, however. I do have a few question regarding maintenance. Oil changes, final drive changes, TB syncing and valve checks / adjustments are very simple procedures, at least for most of us. I will do these things myself if I have the time. If a machine is under warranty, and the maintenance is documented, there's no problem, correct? (That is the question)

Every vehicle I have ever owned (cars and trucks included) had all maintenance done by me. Also, I have NEVER had a warranty claim. I even had a car that my dad bought new in 1982 and we put 330,000 miles on it, original engine, transmission, drivetrain. Changed brakes, wheel bearings, and fluids. And that was using Dino oil. We sold it and the buyer drove it away.

But all the hoopla about these final drives is a bit unnerving. Synthetic oil, yes, change it often, yes, 180 ml for a 2010 R1200GSA, yes, but what about the weight? Those tiny wheel bearings need to be lubed. The problem is, when it's cold, and your just starting out, with that thick oil, are those bearings getting lubed or are you basically running them dry until the oil warms up enough to flow freely? My gut tells me 75W90. Many, many dealers said 75W90, BMWNA says it's the dealers discretion. The $125 service CD suggests an oil that can't be purchase here in the US, but cross referencing it suggests it is 75W90. At my last service, 75W140 was put in it. And these services are very expensive to boot!

So, to answer your question, Brandon, no, my questions have not been answered, everyone appears to have their opinion. My opinion is that BMW should have empirical evidence, tests data results, whatever, that suggests which one to use to minimize likely hood of failure. If 75W/140 is suggested, where is it in the manual?

All this said, I've had my R1200GSA since August 2012. I put almost 3000 miles on it and I love it. And I' m just gonna ride the damn thing and have fun! If the final drive breaks, I would hope warranty would take care of the repair, as it would probably cost me plenty getting the bike back from the middle of nowhere, which is where I intend to go as often as possible.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:22 AM   #24
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I think what everyone needs to remember is that BMW puts millions (MILLIONS) of dollars into developing these bikes. If they say something is going to work better than anything else for the bike that they designed, who should be able to say they know better? Have you guys spent that much money testing final drive oils?

There are more than 200,000 R1200GS's in the world, of course there will be some with problems, just like any other bike, or car, or anything, just accept it.

If you hate them so much KHuddy, why did you buy 2? Maybe you should go to The Motorcycle Shop and buy an Explorer or a Multistrada instead if the R1200 is so bad. Sell yours to someone that will appreciate it. (Ullr sounds like he wants one.)
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:41 AM   #25
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Eek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewmc View Post
BMW puts millions (MILLIONS) of dollars into developing these bikes. If they say something is going to work better than anything else for the bike that they designed, who should be able to say they know better?
Andrew, here is one shinning example of where corporate hubris belies your seeming blind faith in BMW. In 2005 BMW produced a final drive that had no vent to the exterior and was sold as maintenance free for the life of the bike. This was a departure from the designs of the past and did raise eyebrows in the motorcycle press and among longtime owners; but "who should be able to say they know better?" Failures began, BMW was mute, failures increased and BMW responded by tinkering with service intervals and fluid volumes. Again BMW remained mute and their FD began to become the laughing stock of the industry. Check the the results of the 2007 Iron Butt Rally for the atrocious number of BMWs that did not finish. BMW remained mute. But low and behold look at the design on a 2012 R1200 series bike. The vent is back, the correction that hundreds of people said was the solution to the problem BMW says never existed. You can like or even love your motorcycle, but remember the people who make it do so for one reason only and that is to make money,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewmc View Post
If you hate them so much KHuddy, why did you buy 2? Maybe you should go to The Motorcycle Shop and buy an Explorer or a Multistrada instead if the R1200 is so bad. Sell yours to someone that will appreciate it. (Ullr sounds like he wants one.)
Never said I hate or even dislike either of my 1200s or any other BMW; I've bought 5 new ones in the past 6 years so I guesss I'm a slow learner. I think my R1200R is one of the best all around bikes there is; I guess that's why I rode it 20,000 miles so far this year. My point is that I get irritated by the attitude of BMW Corporate and some dealers who hide faults, try to put the burden of poor quality on the owner and adopt a dismissive you-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about attitude with anyone who tries to reveal that the King is buck naked. I just ride'em and fix'em to the best of my ability. Some just try to sell'em; trust who you care to. I think it is intresting and instructive that not a single question was asked about the facts and circumstatnces behind those pictures, they were simply dimissed with a demeaning comment. A little intellectual curiosity would have been novel.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve907AK View Post
I didn't intend this thread to start a bash the dealer session or bash anyone session for that matter. It does appear however that there are some very strong feelings about these potential final drive failures, however. I do have a few question regarding maintenance. Oil changes, final drive changes, TB syncing and valve checks / adjustments are very simple procedures, at least for most of us. I will do these things myself if I have the time. If a machine is under warranty, and the maintenance is documented, there's no problem, correct? (That is the question)

Every vehicle I have ever owned (cars and trucks included) had all maintenance done by me. Also, I have NEVER had a warranty claim. I even had a car that my dad bought new in 1982 and we put 330,000 miles on it, original engine, transmission, drivetrain. Changed brakes, wheel bearings, and fluids. And that was using Dino oil. We sold it and the buyer drove it away.

But all the hoopla about these final drives is a bit unnerving. Synthetic oil, yes, change it often, yes, 180 ml for a 2010 R1200GSA, yes, but what about the weight? Those tiny wheel bearings need to be lubed. The problem is, when it's cold, and your just starting out, with that thick oil, are those bearings getting lubed or are you basically running them dry until the oil warms up enough to flow freely? My gut tells me 75W90. Many, many dealers said 75W90, BMWNA says it's the dealers discretion. The $125 service CD suggests an oil that can't be purchase here in the US, but cross referencing it suggests it is 75W90. At my last service, 75W140 was put in it. And these services are very expensive to boot!

So, to answer your question, Brandon, no, my questions have not been answered, everyone appears to have their opinion. My opinion is that BMW should have empirical evidence, tests data results, whatever, that suggests which one to use to minimize likely hood of failure. If 75W/140 is suggested, where is it in the manual?

All this said, I've had my R1200GSA since August 2012. I put almost 3000 miles on it and I love it. And I' m just gonna ride the damn thing and have fun! If the final drive breaks, I would hope warranty would take care of the repair, as it would probably cost me plenty getting the bike back from the middle of nowhere, which is where I intend to go as often as possible.
Steve is it? Just looking at your user name.

Sorry I wasn't able to answer it, hope I can get a better crack at it this time. If you ever want to chat with our master tech, just give me a ring, I'll put him on! I'm certainly not to his level of expertise so I'll do my best.

Regarding the warranty there are a few important points.
We always ask these questions:
Is the unit stock (meaning using OEM parts where applicable)?
Is it being properly maintained and can the maintenance be proven?

While many of you do your own maintenance, the letter of the law is (BMW's law that is) the unit must be maintained by a factory trained technician.
BUT
Keep in mind, we are the ones who submit the warranty claims, and it is ultimately the dealers discretion as to what warrants a warranty claim and what does not. Moreover, it's BMW's final word once the warranty claim is submitted.

Discretion goes both ways. We are trusted by BMW to use our better judgement in some cases, but BMW still has to approve those cases. There are always exceptions to the rule! If a fantastic customer is outside of their warranty, but is very important to our business or brand, again, there are exceptions. These exceptions do not make the rule! Just because one customer is granted said exception does not mean you will get the same!

We have been selling BMW Motorcycles since 1975 and proudly sell them today. We have had many customers who prefer to do their own maintenance and keep their machines in tip top shape using OEM parts. We are very proud to have customers who love their machines and work on those machines by themselves, that's how we started!

Regarding the final drive oil, it's what we've been using per BMW's recommendation. The only driveline failures I've seen have not been a result of the oil viscosity, there were always extenuating circumstances. The same logic applies to engine and transmission oil. I can count on one hand how many R1200 engine failures I've seen. Same goes for the R1150 and R1100. They are extremely well built machines.

Don't let this discussion worry you, just ride the darn thing and don't look back! I promise the smiles will drown the worries out any day!

Lastly, please, if you have any further questions, shoot me a PM, call in, email, or post here. I want to help any way I can!
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHuddy View Post
Andrew, here is one shinning example of where corporate hubris belies your seeming blind faith in BMW. In 2005 BMW produced a final drive that had no vent to the exterior and was sold as maintenance free for the life of the bike. This was a departure from the designs of the past and did raise eyebrows in the motorcycle press and among longtime owners; but "who should be able to say they know better?" Failures began, BMW was mute, failures increased and BMW responded by tinkering with service intervals and fluid volumes. Again BMW remained mute and their FD began to become the laughing stock of the industry. Check the the results of the 2007 Iron Butt Rally for the atrocious number of BMWs that did not finish. BMW remained mute. But low and behold look at the design on a 2012 R1200 series bike. The vent is back, the correction that hundreds of people said was the solution to the problem BMW says never existed. You can like or even love your motorcycle, but remember the people who make it do so for one reason only and that is to make money,



Never said I hate or even dislike either of my 1200s or any other BMW; I've bought 5 new ones in the past 6 years so I guesss I'm a slow learner. I think my R1200R is one of the best all around bikes there is; I guess that's why I rode it 20,000 miles so far this year. My point is that I get irritated by the attitude of BMW Corporate and some dealers who hide faults, try to put the burden of poor quality on the owner and adopt a dismissive you-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about attitude with anyone who tries to reveal that the King is buck naked. I just ride'em and fix'em to the best of my ability. Some just try to sell'em; trust who you care to. I think it is intresting and instructive that not a single question was asked about the facts and circumstatnces behind those pictures, they were simply dimissed with a demeaning comment. A little intellectual curiosity would have been novel.
This is Steve's thread about his bike so lets try and keep that in mind.

You sound offended, Andrew nor I was trying to do that. Apologies.

I'd love to hear the background of the driveshaft, why don't you shoot me a PM?

I could write you a masters thesis type of response, but again, I'll listen to my first sentence.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendon@TMS View Post
...................While many of you do your own maintenance, the letter of the law is (BMW's law that is) the unit must be maintained by a factory trained technician.
I'd love to let this thread die, but that line is the ultimate in stereotypical dealer horse-hockey. The laws, you know the ones passed by congress and signed by the president; known as consumer protection laws, expressly prohibit that sort of behavior by dealers / manufacturers. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which is enforced by the FTC, makes it illegal for manufacturers or dealers to claim that your warranty is void or to deny coverage under your warranty simply because someone other than the dealer did the work. The owner does not have to prove such malarkey; it is up to the dealer to prove misuse, abuse, lack of or improper maintenance. For a dealer rep to put out something like that on a public forum indicates that you either believe what you said is true which indicates incompetence, or you are attempting to improperly influence where people get their maintenance done via the threat of a voided warranty. Next you'll say we must use BMWs $50/liter oil in the FD.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:39 PM   #29
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Have we ever performed warranty work for you?
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendon@TMS View Post
Have we ever performed warranty work for you?
No. Only been in your place once.
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