ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-07-2012, 08:08 AM   #31
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
Here's a great party trick to entertain all your motorcycling pals and the more of them you can get to do it at the same time, the better the trick will be.

Take a pencil and paper and ask them to draw five objects, don't give them a list of the objects but once they have finished one, give them the next and so on. The rule is that they can only take five seconds to draw each object. The objects are; a house, a person, a face, a car and a motorbike.

OK, you should now have a bunch of papers each containing five little pictograms. Are they all roughly the same? Does the house have a triangle as its roof with perhaps a couple of square windows? Does the person look like a stick man? When they drew the face did they start with a circle then a couple of eyes and then a mouth? Did they miss out the nose? Does the car consist of two little boxes and a big box and a couple of circles for wheels? Did they miss out the windows? The motorbike will probably be a couple of circles with some sort of random squiggles and straight lines between them? Yes? Then the trick is working.

Now comes the fun part. Ask them to draw the objects again, only this time rotate them through 90 degrees. Once again allow only five seconds for them to do each drawing. This will be much more of a struggle for them to do, but they will achieve it, just. This time the house will be the same apart from a rectangle rather than a triangle for the roof, the face will be the same circle with a bump for the nose and only one eye. The person will probably be missing an arm, but will probably have two legs. The car will be lots of squares this time, one each for the wheels and then two bigger ones on top. The motorbike will be the real problem as none of this drawing will be remotely like the previous one. They will struggle with just about everything, even trying to draw the wheel side on (but maybe a bit narrower) they might get in a straight line for the handlebars and a circle for the headlight if they're lucky, but that's not always the case.

What's the trick? Well the trick is that we store representations of everyday objects in structures called schemas which for a lot of objects are set down while we are still quite young (hence the child-like nature of the drawings) the best way to find out what they for a particular object is to get someone to draw the object under time pressure, which is what we have just done. For all the objects that have been drawn, there exists a great deal of symmetry between the first and second versions APART FROM THE MOTORBIKE, which is entirely different let alone asymmetrical.

When we look at a scene we use our stored schema to help identify the objects in the scene and whatever direction we view them from, many objects look very much like our schematic representations of them which makes them dead easy to identify. A motorbike coming at us head-on looks nothing like our stored representation of a motorbike and so it is very much easier to misidentify than a house or a car. This problem of asymmetric schema is just another of the many reasons why SMIDSY's are so common.

Like I said, it's a good party trick!
__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 08:59 AM   #32
mxbundy
Studly Adventurer
 
mxbundy's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Hemet Ca.
Oddometer: 895
Why are these threads always written with the false assumption that motorcyclist`s as a group are somehow better drivers/riders than other user groups on the road?
I would argue that each discipline has a small percentage of very good driver/riders, a much bigger percentage of OK driver/riders, and an equally large group of drivers/riders who are a danger to themselves and everybody else.

Over the last 25 years, my job had me traveling the freeways of LA on a daily basis for hundreds of miles a day.
Traveled all over from one job site to the next. Needless to say, I have seen it all.
But the one thing that I want to stress is that the drivers don't see each other, much less bikes. Add that the biker is usually (at least around here) traveling twice the speed of the surrounding traffic and it is a recipe for disaster.
We as a user group are often quick to place blame on the car in every accident, but as ragtoplvr`s example points out, the way a lot of riders operate there machines, especially on crowded suburban streets/freeways leave themselves little in the way of avoidance.

Just my humble opinion.

Bundy
__________________
The 80`s..........ah yes...back in the days when men looked like women, women dressed like whores and the music F@#KING ROCKED!

Check out http://seatconcepts.com/ , your ass will appreciate it!
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=621311
mxbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 09:35 AM   #33
Aussijussi OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Finland-Australia
Oddometer: 1,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrapper View Post
All this missed what I think is a most fundamental point, they don't see us because they aren't looking for us. People are trained to look for *cars*, they see *cars*, they do not see motorcycles or other non-car things as a result. People watch out of other cars, not other vehicles. This is why they are also notorious for pulling out in front of semis and such, they really didn't see that huge thing because it wasn't what they were looking for.

There's also one other that hasn't been mentioned, and that's the blind spot we all have in each eyeball. This is the one we play with in school, watching the dot disapear as we move a piece of paper in and out from our face. If you just glance to the side, and use only one eyeball, things can hide in that blind spot. That's why you really need to turn your head and get both eyeballs looking, not just one.
In the original article that i quoted, mentioned car drivers are looking for a car, not a motorcycle. It also talks of 'voids' in your eyesight, as you turn your head, and i can tell you the 'void' get's wider, the older you get.
The fact is of course that all the article's, all the hi-viz gear, weaving, defensive riding course's available, wont help you if you haven't got your head in it. Lets keep them eye's peeled, with the 'what if' in your thought's, anticipate!
Aussijussi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 09:42 AM   #34
windmill
Beastly Adventurer
 
windmill's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Kent, Washington State
Oddometer: 4,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxbundy View Post
Why are these threads always written with the false assumption that motorcyclist`s as a group are somehow better drivers/riders than other user groups on the road?
I would argue that each discipline has a small percentage of very good driver/riders, a much bigger percentage of OK driver/riders, and an equally large group of drivers/riders who are a danger to themselves and everybody else.

Over the last 25 years, my job had me traveling the freeways of LA on a daily basis for hundreds of miles a day.
Traveled all over from one job site to the next. Needless to say, I have seen it all.
But the one thing that I want to stress is that the drivers don't see each other, much less bikes. Add that the biker is usually (at least around here) traveling twice the speed of the surrounding traffic and it is a recipe for disaster.
We as a user group are often quick to place blame on the car in every accident, but as ragtoplvr`s example points out, the way a lot of riders operate there machines, especially on crowded suburban streets/freeways leave themselves little in the way of avoidance.

Just my humble opinion.



Bundy
I'm on the road 8 to 10 hours a day in the Seattle metro area, and agree with what you say.

I see a lot of riders, especially on cruisers and sport bikes, that are horrible riders.
__________________
"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".
windmill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 09:47 AM   #35
Foot dragger
singletracker
 
Foot dragger's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: chico,just below rag dump(nor-cal)
Oddometer: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferMutt View Post
Also a fair point.

The number of people who roll up to stop signs, slow a bit, then go WITHOUT stopping is truly astounding. You simply can NOT get a good look in both directions in .03752 seconds.
Many drivers are lulled into a sense of security with their airbags at all impact points, front/rear crush zones,ABS brakes,body harness belts,non shatter glass,and next will be self driving cars so they can legally watch their movies on the hiway.
Sub conciously they know they wont be hurt in an average crash,the facts tend to not agree totally with this but it does have an effect.

And for many drivers,driving is just a way to get some where,if they could remove all traces of skill or knowledge from it they would. For a motorcyclist its a whole different ball of wax and their life is on the line.
I dont live in a huge city and ride very little in town,I just dont enjoy riding around half asleep car drivers that much.
They may not mean to knock you for a loop..........but they will.
__________________
Some bikes around at times
Foot dragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 09:52 AM   #36
Foot dragger
singletracker
 
Foot dragger's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: chico,just below rag dump(nor-cal)
Oddometer: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
I'm on the road 8 to 10 hours a day in the Seattle metro area, and agree with what you say.

I see a lot of riders, especially on cruisers and sport bikes, that are horrible riders.
YES. Ive seen packs of college kids playing in traffic on their sportybikes,3 feet apart,in a pack of 5 or so,just playing,watching each other as they go along in their rolling party. The funny thing is,many survive.

Then there's the surly Harley rider,pays no attention to traffic,never signals,pops in and out of lanes to suit his mood.
Always a hard core grimace on his face,"Look at me,look at my bike,beware"
Obviously they have watched too many cartoons or Clint Eastwood movies,the lowliest grandma in an old Rambler can clean his clock at any time.
__________________
Some bikes around at times
Foot dragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 11:11 AM   #37
DAKEZ
Beastly Adventurer
 
DAKEZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: OR
Oddometer: 19,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrapper View Post
All this missed what I think is a most fundamental point, they don't see us because they aren't looking for us. .

I don't believe this is true.

They don't see us because it is the way human vision works.


Cater to it (with lateral motion and or other aids) or risk a collision.

Anyone that rides straight down the road on a motorcycle is asking for other road users to violate their path of travel.

Riding is NOT a contact sport. If you are going to ride you must take responsibility for your own safety and accept that it is YOUR responsibility to avoid making contact with other road users NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO.
If you can't bring yourself to do that, then go back to driving a cage.
__________________
“Watch out for everything bigger than you, they have the "right of weight"
Bib

DAKEZ screwed with this post 11-07-2012 at 11:22 AM
DAKEZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 11:30 AM   #38
Gummee!
That's MR. Toothless
 
Gummee!'s Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: NoVA for now...
Oddometer: 28,101
The irony is thick...

All y'all trying to figger out how to ride safe and be seen are doing the exact same things *I* do, but get excoriated for in 'dear bicycle riders.'

Two sides of the same effing coin.



Scuse me while I head back down to JM to fight the good fight.

M
__________________
I'm a cyclist that rides motos, not a moto rider that rides bicycles.
Gummee! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 11:34 AM   #39
Foot dragger
singletracker
 
Foot dragger's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: chico,just below rag dump(nor-cal)
Oddometer: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
I don't believe this is true.

They don't see us because it is the way human vision works.


Cater to it (with lateral motion and or other aids) or risk a collision.

Anyone that rides straight down the road on a motorcycle is asking for other road users to violate their path of travel.

Riding is NOT a contact sport. If you are going to ride you must take responsibility for your own safety and accept that it is YOUR responsibility to avoid making contact with other road users NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO.
If you can't bring yourself to do that, then go back to driving a cage.
I think people who survive 100's of thousands of miles on bikes on the road already do this with little or no thought required,some how they have no close calls,not a lot of butt clinching going on.
They have trained them selves to act a certain way for certain situations,no matter what happens they are already gone or stopped before it happened,you wont see them tailgating,or being tailgated,Call it a 6th sense or what ever,it comes from riding a lot.

Those who swear their ABS saves their life all the time on bikes are doing it a different way.
__________________
Some bikes around at times
Foot dragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 12:00 PM   #40
mxbundy
Studly Adventurer
 
mxbundy's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Hemet Ca.
Oddometer: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot dragger View Post
I think people who survive 100's of thousands of miles on bikes on the road already do this with little or no thought required,some how they have no close calls,not a lot of butt clinching going on.
They have trained them selves to act a certain way for certain situations,no matter what happens they are already gone or stopped before it happened,you wont see them tailgating,or being tailgated,Call it a 6th sense or what ever,it comes from riding a lot.

Those who swear their ABS saves their life all the time on bikes are doing it a different way.
+1 Agree 1000%


Bundy
__________________
The 80`s..........ah yes...back in the days when men looked like women, women dressed like whores and the music F@#KING ROCKED!

Check out http://seatconcepts.com/ , your ass will appreciate it!
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=621311
mxbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 12:14 PM   #41
ragtoplvr
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: S. W. Mssouri
Oddometer: 5,879
Regarding close calls. when I started riding again I had close calls several in the first few months. Each time I learned something, and I avoid as much as I can situations where a close call can occur. I have not had a close call in many months. I weave, try for visibility, pick visible lane positions, etc.

I got pulled over for weaving once. Interesting conversation with the officer. No ticket once he understood I was not stunting or showing off, well I was showing off, but only to keep safe.

Rod
ragtoplvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2012, 01:44 PM   #42
Foot dragger
singletracker
 
Foot dragger's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: chico,just below rag dump(nor-cal)
Oddometer: 12,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
Regarding close calls. when I started riding again I had close calls several in the first few months. Each time I learned something, and I avoid as much as I can situations where a close call can occur. I have not had a close call in many months. I weave, try for visibility, pick visible lane positions, etc.

I got pulled over for weaving once. Interesting conversation with the officer. No ticket once he understood I was not stunting or showing off, well I was showing off, but only to keep safe.

Rod
Ive never done the weaving in my lane thing,maybe time to try it a little. I do watch what goes on behind me when Im stopped at a stop sign or light,as much as can be done anyway.
Getting hit while parked seems to be a recurring thing and can be a deal ender,it happens so quick I dont know if anything could be done anyway.

All of this just to keep from getting hit by someone eating their lunch while driving,or putting on makeup,or on the phone,or just unconcerned. Its scary if you sit and watch people driving by sometimes.
I was riding my bicycle down a gradual hill,a big SUV was moving towards me and kept coming into my lane,just kept rolling along right at me.
No head sticking up,evidently no one driving the thing.

I got up close and the woman was trying to get something off the floor maybe in the backseat,I guess she forgot she was driving?
__________________
Some bikes around at times
Foot dragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:39 AM   #43
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
If there are 120,000,000 (one hundred and twenty million) light sensitive cells in the human eye, yet only 1,000,000 (one million) fibres in the optic nerve, what happens to the data?
__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 10:55 PM   #44
justacommuternow
Gnarly Adventurer
 
justacommuternow's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Oddometer: 130
I purchased a pair of XXXL light nylon hi-viz gloves at the local hardware supply store and pulled them up over my leather gloves. There was an immediate dramatic difference in riding a little XT250 around town. Before the hi-viz gloves, avoiding a near T-bone became a common experience. (And I actually felt bad for the people sitting in their cars as they were pulling out of the intersection into my path, as I could distinctly see the shock on their faces when they finally saw me.) After the hi-viz gloves, I had three years of safe riding, until I sold the bike, without a single incident of someone pulling out in front of me. Those gloves made a big, big difference.
__________________
.
"The first day or so we all pointed to our countries. The third or fourth day we were pointing to our continents. By the fifth day we were aware of only one Earth." ...aboard the 18th flight of Space Shuttle Discovery, June 1985.
justacommuternow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 09:00 AM   #45
StupidDogCoffee
IGNORE THIS TEXT
 
StupidDogCoffee's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: Orygun
Oddometer: 29
When I was a teenager and got my first ticket, the judge made me take a Defensive Driving course. I resented it at the time, but honestly it improved my driving immensely. I think DD orders should be issued on all moving violations.
StupidDogCoffee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014