Emergency firstaid for motorcyclist - Page 2

SloMo228 · 11-05-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runnin4melife

A better alternative would be the new combat gauze, it is a gauze that is impregnated with a variety of clotting agents, this stuff works tremendously well. I can stop femoral bleeds with this and a few ace wraps. The key to any arterial bleed is to stop the flow and get a clot formed.

I'll have to look into adding this to my kit. Thanks for the info!

Ronin ADV · 11-05-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runnin4melife

Coban has some utility but when looking at space and what is the most versatile the ace bandages are vastly superior because they have so many applications.

I am making a special video on tourniquet application. One of the huge disconnects between the civilian utilization and the military side is that we utilize tourniquets effectively everyday to staunch arterial flow. I cannot tell you how many times the arguments come up as they are essentially the antichrist in the world of civie EMS. But utilized properly they are life saving and you can make it out of the wilderness just fine.

I am staying away from any form of suture/stapling because of issues that can occur w/the application of those techniques, as well as the skill needed to effectively employ them. This series is designed to be low tech, but highly effective. The burn cream is a good idea, but the effects of the lidocaine will disappear really fast. For the space an antiseptic cream might be a better alternative, but if it is a 2+1 system then that is great.

You hit the nail on the head with "utilized properly". I have seen a number of fiascos from home done tourniquets. I agree that in the right hands, they have there applications.
The burn gel / lidocaine for me is primarily for things such as staple application and it comes in tiny foil packs which are easier than a bottle of anesthetic and a syringe.

runnin4melife · 11-05-2012, 07:54 AM

Yeah, I have some other items I carry like a few syringes and marcaine for nerve blocks but that is way past the scope of what can be taught on here. Have you ever looked at the NATO tourniquets, not only are they great for tourniquets it is a nice web strap that can serve other purposes. Next to the SOF-T the NATO is one of the only tourniquets that I have actually gotten to work properly. The interesting thing about tourniquets is that if they aren't tight enough they actually increase blood loss by increasing pressure but not cutting it off.

Ronin ADV · 11-05-2012, 08:33 AM

I am not familiar with the NATO tourniquet you describe. Sounds like something I should look into. I work in a facility that has a large patient catchment area including several rural / remote communities. Occasionally I get someone, with a typically minor wound, that has gone crazy with the belt / rubber band home tourniquet and presents with an ischemic appendage / limb. You are trained in the proper application and monitoring of a tourniquet and are likely also dealing with a goal of rapid patient transport. In the civilian population, this doesn't always happen and so my usual advice has been to just apply decent direct pressure to most wounds. Also the civilian population including motorcyclists are not typically suffering ballistic injuries and are consequently less likely to encounter true significant arterial bleeds.
I used to carry all kinds of things in my backcountry kits, but over a few decades of use and additional training and discussion with other physicians and wilderness medical professionals my kits have actually become smaller and less complex. I am a big fan a dual use items like duct tape and safety pins. I began to realize that I really didn't need definitive care but good initial stabiliztion until I can get myself or the patient to a medical facility. These times typically range in the few to several hour range (occasionally longer). Wound repair is a good example. Where I used to carry syringes, anesthetics, and suturing materials, now its just a little wipe on lidocaine, and bandaids / duct tape / dermabond. In extreme cases I may use my stapler. The wound doesn't have to be pretty because I am going to clean it out and fix it properly later.
I seem to run into folks that either carry no medical gear (which is silly), or those that carry large fancy kits that they don't know how to use (which is also silly). That's why some basic training is so key and your videos will help a lot here. Its easy to take for granted when you have been trained and perform medical care routinely, but the general public is often completely overwhelmed by even modest injuries. Therefore probably the most important thing is to remain calm, focused, and do simple effective things. Unfortunately that is a hard thing to train into someone.

runnin4melife · 11-05-2012, 08:37 AM

That is truly accurate, I love safety pins by the way but didn't include those in this kit because I was afraid what people would do with them. In a pinch they make great wound closure material!

fuelish · 11-05-2012, 09:20 AM

How about butterfly closures? I have used those a couple of times when going in to get stitched up was not possible.

runnin4melife · 11-05-2012, 09:38 AM

Fuelish, a simple band aid can be cut to form a butterfly closure, steri strips are great for this as well. You can also use medical tape too. I try to keep my kit to items that have more than one use, and the more the merrier. But they are so small you can easily pack them too. I find that out of everything I have I generally use the band aids and the ace wraps more often than anything. Both of which for minor things like a small cut or a wrist sprang.

tokyoklahoma · 11-05-2012, 11:32 AM

Have you seen:http://www.darkangelmedical.com/ ?

runnin4melife · 11-05-2012, 11:59 AM

So I looked at the kit, this is modeled after the kits designed for the individual soldier to carry. I looked particularly at the DARK Complete kit, this has a HALO seal (for chest wounds), NPA, set of nitrile gloves (black, never liked black gloves...), combat gauze, compressed gauze, shears, and israeli styled bandage. All of these items are great but for $165 that is a bit steep!

You can get by with general trauma shears, they are what I use. The HALO seals are for sucking chest wounds, so they have a great application and I actually carry a few in my large aid bag. The problem is that you must still needle decompress if you have developed a tension pneumothorax, so unless you're comfortable putting a large bore two inch needle in your chest they kind of become worthless. Also I tend to utilize petroleum impregnated gauze for sucking chest wounds more so that the Halo seals, they work great for a chest tube covering though!

The nitrile gloves can be sourced from anywhere, these are super thick and black, two things I do not want, first I want some tactile discrimination, and secondly I want to see or not see blood on my hands. The NPA is actually a great thing for motorcyclists because you can place it in an obtunded persons nose and create a better airway for them.

Compressed gauze is great, as is combat gauze but shy of a super duper wound you shouldn't need the combat gauze. The israeli like dressings are essentially an ace wrap with a dressing at the beginning, this can be overcome with some compressed gauze and an ace wrap.

They charge an exceptional amount of money for israeli dressings and they are good but you can use cheaper items and achieve the same effect. Now for a soldier in a mad dash this is a great all in one item but out on the trail we aren't getting shot at, hopefully not.

These companies are looking to make a buck off of a prepackaged system, just like the first aid kits they sell. Be wary of what you can use and what you cannot. I pulled out an old household first aid kit I have had for quite sometime and was amazed at the novel items I will never use in there.

runnin4melife · 11-05-2012, 12:14 PM

If you want to fill a whole pannier you can get a huge London bridge bag and fill it up to your hearts content. I have this bag that I carry in my truck, I do not know why but I tend to be around things when they go badly and have used quite a bit of these items in this kit. This is all advanced stuff though, way beyond the scope of paramedics etc... But I wanted to provide a perspective of what you can have to what I actually carry on the trails with me. There are a few critical elements to medical equipment.

Do you know how to use it? Do you know when to use it? Do you know when not to use it? Will it make a difference if you do use it?

Ronin ADV · 11-05-2012, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runnin4melife

There are a few critical elements to medical equipment.

Do you know how to use it? Do you know when to use it? Do you know when not to use it? Will it make a difference if you do use it?

This bears repeating.

Nice kit BTW. A bit too much for the bike but looks good for the truck. I also have that stupid magnet of coming up on auto wreck horrorshows when I'm out driving. I like the gloves and some sort of face mask if you have to do rescue breathing. I've gotten covered with other peoples blood too many times.

tokyoklahoma · 11-05-2012, 01:20 PM

Thank you for the quick reply.
I have an interest in the subject but no training.
Some of my buddies are paramedics, but I worry what I would do if THEY were the one needing help.

I don't panic at least.

runnin4melife · 11-05-2012, 01:30 PM

Tokyo, you can watch some of the videos I am making, or get with your friends and have them teach you some stuff. Murphy's Law will dictate that you will be the one providing the care to the one that has the knowledge and skill... Damn Murphy's Law!

Ronin, yeah I always dawn my protective kit, gloves and eye pro at the very least. In the military I know that most of my fellow members are free of communicable blood borne pathogens but I know nothing of the ordinary person out in the world.

tokyoklahoma · 11-05-2012, 02:40 PM

Yeah.....that Murphy guy is a prick.

wmax351 · 11-05-2012, 07:31 PM

I think a lot depends on what riding you are doing. For me, I am almost entirely street or populated dirt. So my goal is to be seen, for someone to help. I am not going to need to ride/walk out.

I keep the usuals: Ace bandages, sterile gauze, a big petrolatum gauze, band aids, providone iodine swabs, steri-strips, gorilla tape, an albuterol inhaler (I used to have athsma, nice to have in general). I have tools that can be used for splinting if need be. When I am traveling, I have an inflatable "Therm-a-rest" pad, which works as a great splint. Also have a flashlight and a headlamp.

11-05-2012, 08:33 AM	#19
Ronin ADV Gear addict Joined: Apr 2010 Location: Northern Sierras Oddometer: 574	I am not familiar with the NATO tourniquet you describe. Sounds like something I should look into. I work in a facility that has a large patient catchment area including several rural / remote communities. Occasionally I get someone, with a typically minor wound, that has gone crazy with the belt / rubber band home tourniquet and presents with an ischemic appendage / limb. You are trained in the proper application and monitoring of a tourniquet and are likely also dealing with a goal of rapid patient transport. In the civilian population, this doesn't always happen and so my usual advice has been to just apply decent direct pressure to most wounds. Also the civilian population including motorcyclists are not typically suffering ballistic injuries and are consequently less likely to encounter true significant arterial bleeds. I used to carry all kinds of things in my backcountry kits, but over a few decades of use and additional training and discussion with other physicians and wilderness medical professionals my kits have actually become smaller and less complex. I am a big fan a dual use items like duct tape and safety pins. I began to realize that I really didn't need definitive care but good initial stabiliztion until I can get myself or the patient to a medical facility. These times typically range in the few to several hour range (occasionally longer). Wound repair is a good example. Where I used to carry syringes, anesthetics, and suturing materials, now its just a little wipe on lidocaine, and bandaids / duct tape / dermabond. In extreme cases I may use my stapler. The wound doesn't have to be pretty because I am going to clean it out and fix it properly later. I seem to run into folks that either carry no medical gear (which is silly), or those that carry large fancy kits that they don't know how to use (which is also silly). That's why some basic training is so key and your videos will help a lot here. Its easy to take for granted when you have been trained and perform medical care routinely, but the general public is often completely overwhelmed by even modest injuries. Therefore probably the most important thing is to remain calm, focused, and do simple effective things. Unfortunately that is a hard thing to train into someone. __________________ Dan 2010 BMW F800GS, 2011 Yamaha WR250R, 2011 Honda Ruckus, 2013 KTM 500 EXC Up the WABDR, F800GS Stealth Bike Build, WR250R Scotts Damper Install Red dirt, rocks and sand; Riding the southern UTBDR

11-05-2012, 11:32 AM	#23
tokyoklahoma Studly Adventurer Joined: Jun 2011 Location: N.W. Arkansas Oddometer: 754	oppinion Have you seen:http://www.darkangelmedical.com/ ?

11-05-2012, 01:20 PM	#27
tokyoklahoma Studly Adventurer Joined: Jun 2011 Location: N.W. Arkansas Oddometer: 754	Thanks Thank you for the quick reply. I have an interest in the subject but no training. Some of my buddies are paramedics, but I worry what I would do if THEY were the one needing help. I don't panic at least.

11-05-2012, 02:40 PM	#29
tokyoklahoma Studly Adventurer Joined: Jun 2011 Location: N.W. Arkansas Oddometer: 754	Murphy Yeah.....that Murphy guy is a prick.

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11-05-2012, 07:54 AM	#18
runnin4melife ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2012 Location: Maryland Oddometer: 488	Yeah, I have some other items I carry like a few syringes and marcaine for nerve blocks but that is way past the scope of what can be taught on here. Have you ever looked at the NATO tourniquets, not only are they great for tourniquets it is a nice web strap that can serve other purposes. Next to the SOF-T the NATO is one of the only tourniquets that I have actually gotten to work properly. The interesting thing about tourniquets is that if they aren't tight enough they actually increase blood loss by increasing pressure but not cutting it off.

11-05-2012, 08:37 AM	#20
runnin4melife ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2012 Location: Maryland Oddometer: 488	That is truly accurate, I love safety pins by the way but didn't include those in this kit because I was afraid what people would do with them. In a pinch they make great wound closure material!

11-05-2012, 09:20 AM	#21
fuelish Studly Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: Raleigh, NC Oddometer: 635	How about butterfly closures? I have used those a couple of times when going in to get stitched up was not possible.

11-05-2012, 09:38 AM	#22
runnin4melife ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2012 Location: Maryland Oddometer: 488	Fuelish, a simple band aid can be cut to form a butterfly closure, steri strips are great for this as well. You can also use medical tape too. I try to keep my kit to items that have more than one use, and the more the merrier. But they are so small you can easily pack them too. I find that out of everything I have I generally use the band aids and the ace wraps more often than anything. Both of which for minor things like a small cut or a wrist sprang.

11-05-2012, 11:59 AM	#24
runnin4melife ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2012 Location: Maryland Oddometer: 488	So I looked at the kit, this is modeled after the kits designed for the individual soldier to carry. I looked particularly at the DARK Complete kit, this has a HALO seal (for chest wounds), NPA, set of nitrile gloves (black, never liked black gloves...), combat gauze, compressed gauze, shears, and israeli styled bandage. All of these items are great but for $165 that is a bit steep! You can get by with general trauma shears, they are what I use. The HALO seals are for sucking chest wounds, so they have a great application and I actually carry a few in my large aid bag. The problem is that you must still needle decompress if you have developed a tension pneumothorax, so unless you're comfortable putting a large bore two inch needle in your chest they kind of become worthless. Also I tend to utilize petroleum impregnated gauze for sucking chest wounds more so that the Halo seals, they work great for a chest tube covering though! The nitrile gloves can be sourced from anywhere, these are super thick and black, two things I do not want, first I want some tactile discrimination, and secondly I want to see or not see blood on my hands. The NPA is actually a great thing for motorcyclists because you can place it in an obtunded persons nose and create a better airway for them. Compressed gauze is great, as is combat gauze but shy of a super duper wound you shouldn't need the combat gauze. The israeli like dressings are essentially an ace wrap with a dressing at the beginning, this can be overcome with some compressed gauze and an ace wrap. They charge an exceptional amount of money for israeli dressings and they are good but you can use cheaper items and achieve the same effect. Now for a soldier in a mad dash this is a great all in one item but out on the trail we aren't getting shot at, hopefully not. These companies are looking to make a buck off of a prepackaged system, just like the first aid kits they sell. Be wary of what you can use and what you cannot. I pulled out an old household first aid kit I have had for quite sometime and was amazed at the novel items I will never use in there.

11-05-2012, 12:14 PM	#25
runnin4melife ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2012 Location: Maryland Oddometer: 488	If you want to fill a whole pannier you can get a huge London bridge bag and fill it up to your hearts content. I have this bag that I carry in my truck, I do not know why but I tend to be around things when they go badly and have used quite a bit of these items in this kit. This is all advanced stuff though, way beyond the scope of paramedics etc... But I wanted to provide a perspective of what you can have to what I actually carry on the trails with me. There are a few critical elements to medical equipment. Do you know how to use it? Do you know when to use it? Do you know when not to use it? Will it make a difference if you do use it?

11-05-2012, 01:30 PM	#28
runnin4melife ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2012 Location: Maryland Oddometer: 488	Tokyo, you can watch some of the videos I am making, or get with your friends and have them teach you some stuff. Murphy's Law will dictate that you will be the one providing the care to the one that has the knowledge and skill... Damn Murphy's Law! Ronin, yeah I always dawn my protective kit, gloves and eye pro at the very least. In the military I know that most of my fellow members are free of communicable blood borne pathogens but I know nothing of the ordinary person out in the world.

11-05-2012, 07:31 PM	#30
wmax351 Studly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2011 Location: Marin County and Berkeley, CA Oddometer: 740	I think a lot depends on what riding you are doing. For me, I am almost entirely street or populated dirt. So my goal is to be seen, for someone to help. I am not going to need to ride/walk out. I keep the usuals: Ace bandages, sterile gauze, a big petrolatum gauze, band aids, providone iodine swabs, steri-strips, gorilla tape, an albuterol inhaler (I used to have athsma, nice to have in general). I have tools that can be used for splinting if need be. When I am traveling, I have an inflatable "Therm-a-rest" pad, which works as a great splint. Also have a flashlight and a headlamp.