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Old 11-13-2012, 06:03 AM   #211
Rucksta
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Lots of opinions little experimental data.


Experiment 1 peg weighting

Can be done sitting, standing or with bum just off seat.
I prefer bum just off seat to reduce variables while maximusing input vectors.

Find a nice open gravel corner with a consistant surface.
Enter slow and increase throttle through the corner until the rear wheel starts to loose traction or even just bites hard.
Alternate your weight bias between inside and outside pags

Observe the resulting change in slip angle.
Repeat as required until you
a. get the hang of it.
b. give up cause you fall down a lot.


Experiment 2. peg wieghting

Find a suitable area for doing donuts.
Compare how easily the bike breaks traction on the rear when you
a. place inside foot on the ground and support your weight on the outside peg.
b. place inside foot on ground and support your weight by sliding your inside butt cheek off the seat and griping the tank between your outside knee and your your inside thigh so as to place no weight on the outside peg.


Why do you need to hop the inside foot?
What is the effect of placing your inside foot forward?
What is the effect of allowing the bike to pass your inside foot.


Experiment 3 turn radius

Find a suitable surface where traction is not an issue e.g. empty carpark or an outdoor basketball court.

Warm up with some figure 8 paterns and ensure you have good throttle control and can balance throttle input , rear brake and clutch slip to produce smooth turns and transitions.

You will be comparing 3 riding styles

1. Rider leaning more than bike
2. Rider leaning with bike
3. Rider leaning less than bike.

Start off with slow circles and work your way down to the tightest turn possible.
Alternate riding styles
Work your speed and turn radius upwards as you become more proficient.
Again alternate between styles

In a slow tight turn which style allows the tightest turn?
As the speed and turn radius increase does the most efffective riding style change?
Is there one style that is more effective than the others at all combinations of speed & turning radii?

Discuss the results and varibles that may have affected the experimental results.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:23 PM   #212
Craneguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
Lots of opinions little experimental data.
Experiment 1 peg weighting
Experiment 2. peg wieghting
I cut this little section out of Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist 2" that deals with body leaning and peg weighting.

It's worth a look as he went to the trouble to customize the demo bike with a second set of fixed handlebars to take counter-steering out of the equation.

Let me know how effective "weighting the pegs" seems to be for steering the bike after you've watched it. It's a very effective demonstration.

Once again, I'm entirely not an off-road rider, so it might work brilliantly on the dirt.

The "no BS" (body steering) bike - Keith Code
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:38 PM   #213
Rucksta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craneguy View Post
I cut this little section out of Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist 2" that deals with body leaning and peg weighting.

It's worth a look as he went to the trouble to customize the demo bike with a second set of fixed handlebars to take counter-steering out of the equation.

Let me know how effective "weighting the pegs" seems to be for steering the bike after you've watched it. It's a very effective demonstration.

Once again, I'm entirely not an off-road rider, so it might work brilliantly on the dirt.

The "no BS" (body steering) bike - Keith Code
Step away from your keyboard and go and try the experiment for youself. on a real motorcycle.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:58 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
Step away from your keyboard and go and try the experiment for youself. on a real motorcycle.
You're welcome.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:10 PM   #215
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Thanks, Craneguy, for the link to the "Keith Code No Bullshit" video.
There are indeed a lot of Urban Myths about cornering, particularly about dirt cornering ~ where top riders can still give topsy-turvy explanations about how they achieve their good results.

It reminds me of another little experiment, which Rucksta may care to comment on :

* Ride in a straight line and standing on pegs in the normal way.
Now, without moving your head/body sideways away from the midline of the bike . . . just very carefully and slowly take all weight off one peg.
(And you will need strong arms.)

What is the result ?
Provided you haven't subconsciously twiddled the handlebar and/or moved your body even a little bit sideways . . . the result is a straight line. No cornering. Despite one of the pegs being very heavily weighted.
Granted, it's a rather silly experiment, since nobody in real life actually changes the peg weighting WITHOUT moving the body sideways ~ unless he's got arms like the Incredible Hulk.
But it does show the relevance of peg-weighting IN ITSELF.

Perhaps you can think of other experiments.
But please delete any experiments where the foot touches the ground ~ they are irrelevant . . . unless you have a steel shoe-piece and ride speedway style.

The really interesting question . . . still to be answered : WHY is overleaning the bike better for dirt cornering, than when you are standing "straight" relative to the bike ?
Explanations welcome.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:42 PM   #216
Craneguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
Thanks, Craneguy, for the link to the "Keith Code No Bullshit" video.
There are indeed a lot of Urban Myths about cornering, particularly about dirt cornering ~ where top riders can still give topsy-turvy explanations about how they achieve their good results.

It reminds me of another little experiment, which Rucksta may care to comment on :

* Ride in a straight line and standing on pegs in the normal way.
Now, without moving your head/body sideways away from the midline of the bike . . . just very carefully and slowly take all weight off one peg.
(And you will need strong arms.)

What is the result ?
Provided you haven't subconsciously twiddled the handlebar and/or moved your body even a little bit sideways . . . the result is a straight line. No cornering. Despite one of the pegs being very heavily weighted.
Granted, it's a rather silly experiment, since nobody in real life actually changes the peg weighting WITHOUT moving the body sideways ~ unless he's got arms like the Incredible Hulk.
But it does show the relevance of peg-weighting IN ITSELF.

Perhaps you can think of other experiments.
But please delete any experiments where the foot touches the ground ~ they are irrelevant . . . unless you have a steel shoe-piece and ride speedway style.

The really interesting question . . . still to be answered : WHY is overleaning the bike better for dirt cornering, than when you are standing "straight" relative to the bike ?
Explanations welcome.
.
My father, who was riding a bike since the 30's, swore that leaning the bike over and staying upright kept his weight (GC ) over the contact patch of the tire and he could corner as fast as anyone.

We know that that's not the most effective method for the track as we see racers scraping their elbow on the floor these days, but maybe on dirt it's still the way to go due to less available traction to resist the centrifugal forces pushing the bike to the outside of the turn.

I waddle like an 80 year old cowboy on dirt, so I'm absolutely clueless on correct technique.

By the way, the BS in the video link is short for "Body Steer" I wouldn't want to get the group all riled up again
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:18 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.


* Ride in a straight line and standing on pegs in the normal way.
Now, without moving your head/body sideways away from the midline of the bike . . . just very carefully and slowly take all weight off one peg.
(And you will need strong arms.)

What is the result ?
Provided you haven't subconsciously twiddled the handlebar and/or moved your body even a little bit sideways . . . the result is a straight line. No cornering. Despite one of the pegs being very heavily weighted.
Granted, it's a rather silly experiment, since nobody in real life actually changes the peg weighting WITHOUT moving the body sideways ~ unless he's got arms like the Incredible Hulk.
But it does show the relevance of peg-weighting IN ITSELF.


.
You have said it is a very silly experiment when in fact it is an impossible experiment , it simply cannot be done , to place all or most of your weight on one leg without moving your body , it simply will make you fall over , OR make you impart force on another part of the motor cycle which will negate/ compromise any percieved change you have made to the peg weighting .


Here is something you CAN do and so can every one else who has OK balance .

Get your bike up to about 80 kph ( on ANY surface ) and stand up on the pegs and release the bars and stand completely upright. Now gently unweight the left foot , and then do the same with the right foot ( of course putting the weight back onto the other foot) . Unless your steering head bearings have shit themselves or is binding , the bike will first turn to the right and then as you unweight the right peg it will swing back to the left . for a bike to turn , the handle bars must also turn , unless the ground is at an angle ( off camber ) and the rear wheel is braking traction ( assuming both wheels are on the ground ) . So when you put more weight on one peg or the other and DON'T force the handlebars to remain straight ahead , the bike will turn due to the steering geomerty built into the fork / frame relationship and the inherrant handling charictaristics of the particular design . This experiment can help you understand how to gain MORE control of the motorcycle without using your arms as much , a fast rider through the trees ( enduro Racers ) generally uses his pegs to turn the bike because he/ she can first move the body into position and then at the critical time change the weight distribution on the pegs to achieve the desired / needed alteration to the bikes line of travel.

On a loose surface , peg weighting when cornering IS important to going faster ( ie Racing ) , NOT neccessarily to the average Adventure rider . Weighting the outside peg DOES increase traction and drive and I don't care how that happens in the scientific sense , I do however KNOW it works , my racing experience over several decades has taught me that one , a couple of times over .You forget that one and you end up mid pack !

All this disscussion is completely MOOT , mainly because everyone who rides does most of the micro management of the riding on a totally subconcious level , unless they are trying to alter an habitual movement that is detrimental to the handling of the bike , muscle motor memory takes over when you ride a bike , just as it does when you ride a bicycle or drive a car . Thinking about too much scientific crap when you are riding for the pleasure of riding is like going to work .... no fun at all !


My opinion of using Tar racing / riding methods on the dirt is probably very contoversial , but I find tar riding and dirt riding skills are poles apart , when I am having troubles with my riding on dirt it is usually due to having been doing a lot of tar kilometers recently and when I hit the dirt my muscle motor memory is still in tar mode , I then conciously change the way I attack the dirt and it all then comes back together for me . Just my way of doing it , I am not suggesting anyone else has that issue .
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:49 PM   #218
Rucksta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
It reminds me of another little experiment, which Rucksta may care to comment on :

Explanations welcome.
.

The experiment was to see who was willing to develop knowledge by TRYING new things.
Test results are coming in already.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:52 PM   #219
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Both standing up on pegs and "over leaning" (really keeping body upright when cornering) is more about being in a possition that you can quickly shift body weight / forces to unexpected things (like slides etc).

Road racing where you know exactly what's coming around the corner- you can use the most efficient cornering technique available - hang off as far inwards and down as possible.

If you're doing a smooth dirt corner that you know perfectly , you could possibly do the same thing...if you were good enough and wanted to trust those tyres....

In the real world , when riding dirt (and unfamiliar roads) , I like to be able to quickly react to the unexpected rock / unseen greasy patch / spoon jump covered by a shadow....etc etc etc. so I keep my upper body as upright as possible where possible so I can lean in / out / forward / backward / weight either footpeg or use either brake / throttle / clutch / jump off and pray .....

Standing or sitting ? I stand if I think I'm going to need to be reacting to bigger unexpected forces (spoon jumps / rocks), accepting that the COG is higher and I'm an inherently more unstable combination, but accepting this compromise so I can have my arms and legs / upper body waving all over the place as I struggle to regain control because the shit hit the fanny. Cruising along on a smooth track with good visibility and reliable traction I sit. Unless I'm riding a KTM...because I look better standing on a KTM .

Then every so often, I'll analyze what went wrong, try to understand it and wonder why anyone with any understanding of physcs would choose to fly down a rock strewn hill with shadows covering the spoon jumps...
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:59 PM   #220
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Sorry, Craneguy, but here in Oz the term BS will never mean more than one thing . . . and it ain't Body Steer.

I daresay your father was a good rider ~ despite the topsy-turvy explanations he used.
And indeed for cornering on bitumen, it seems to make precious little difference what angle the bike itself is at (provided that things aren't scraping . . . or you've run too far off the edge of the tread. Can I be bold enough to say here, it's almost all about the lean angle of the combined CoG ? Or Centre-of-Mass, if Eepeqez must insist on it !! ).

Dirt seems to be [slightly] different. With few exceptions, nowadays the experts "overlean" the bike to achieve faster ~ or at least better controlled ~ cornering.
The benefits of overleaning may well be relatively small, but any small benefit is welcome. Especially in competition.

Over the years, I've heard quite a bit of BS and Urban Myths about WHY overleaning works . . . but valid scientific reasons have been thin on the ground.
These reasons must exist . . . and I'd like to know what they are.

I like to ride . . . AND also I like to understand. Without BS.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:05 PM   #221
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I find it easier to stand than to sit in the woods; on the street I will sit most of the time:
  • I can see farther ahead
  • If sitting and hitting bumps that will wear you out really quick. Standing does not have the seat bouncing you all around.
  • Keeps me from too tight of a grip on the handlebars

With these advantages I can ride without pissing off most all but the fastest hardcore riders.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:11 PM   #222
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Oldfatbeerman, you are very correct in your statements.

What you can see BEHIND my "weightless-peg experiment" is the simple truth that everyone does [as you said well] "micro-manage" bar pressures & peg weights subconsciously.

BTW that experiment can with difficulty be done, but it's rather pointless . . . and bloody harsh on the wrists. It just illustrates the wrongness of the idea that peg-weighting is the heart & soul of cornering. It's all a lot more complex than peg-weighting.

And as you also rightly say, the so-called peg-weighting is of little importance when your just pootling around enjoying the ride.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:52 PM   #223
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A small correction to the last line of my previous post ~
". . . when YOU'RE just pootling around and enjoying the ride."
Cos there's no room for sloppy typing . . . or sloppy thinking . . . in this thread !!

AT, you may well be right.
For road racing, the angle of the bike is [mostly] irrelevant.

But for cornering on dirt, I suspect there may be other factors going on.
I have the intuitive ( unscientific !! ) thought that more angle is somehow helping the tyres corner a bit better ~ maybe it's nothing special to do with the knobs ~ or is it the more "cone" shape of the total wheel when the tyre shape is distorted by a greater angle ?

It can't be more "weight" ~ the bike is exactly the same weight throughout the race (give or take a few litres of fuel & sweat & mud) whatever angle it's at. Yes, there are momentary changes of weight [i.e. vertical downward force] as the wheel goes over bumps, or suffers a bit of "weight transference" from accelerating/braking. But on steady cornering . . . no change.

Dunno what. I'm puzzled . . . but hoping to find a dinkum explanation.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:02 PM   #224
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Just adding some words what have somehow been missed in this thread...

Somehow I think you are all trying to convince each other the same thing and that what we have here is a communication problem!
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:03 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
It can't be more "weight" ~ the bike is exactly the same weight throughout the race (give or take a few litres of fuel & sweat & mud) whatever angle it's at. Yes, there are momentary changes of weight [i.e. vertical downward force] as the wheel goes over bumps, or suffers a bit of "weight transference" from accelerating/braking. But on steady cornering . . . no change.
Sounds like shades of the crate full of canaries puzzle to me!

Unless either the mass of an object or the gravitational field it is located in change, the weight doesn't change, not even momentarily.
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