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Old 11-06-2012, 12:08 AM   #61
Beemerboff
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Good link SYDADVDS, but be careful, I was threatened with expulsion from the VFR forum when I tried to introduce the dynamics of a body in motion into a motorcycle suspension forum discussion.

And just because someone has written it in a book doesnt mean it is any more relevant or accurate that any other opinion.

I used to take Spen King's magazine - Car design and Technology, and the guys who write books like that and the engineers who design car suspensions squabble amongst themselves just as much, if not more, than those who inhabit the ,err, less knowledgeable forums.

Fitting wider pegs in place of the narrow stock items on my XT transformed the handling, for me.

But I have wide set pegs on all my other bikes , and might just have grown used to bending them round the corners by weighting the inside peg.

I dont know why it works and I dont really care, so if someone tells me it isnt the weight but something else that makes the bike turn IMHO it is irrelevant - all I am interested is the initial input and the eventual output- I dont need or care to know about the bits in between.

It is probably similar for the blokes who prefer to ride standing up.

Presumably they can detect some improvement in suspension action or handling when they are standing on the pegs, and it isn't necessary that I, or anyone else, understand why.

If it happens for them, it happens, and that is it.

I started riding in scrambles at the age of 16 on a 500cc AJS scrambler and I must confess that that no matter where I put my
7 1/2 stones on the bike I couldn't detect any change in the suspension or handling.

And 50 years and a few stones heavier I still can't, no matter what I am riding.

I can accept that others prefer to stand, but I don't accept that this gives them the right to tell me that I am doing something wrong.

I think this is the core issue here , we all have the right to suit ourselves, without other folk telling us we are doing something wrong.

Particularly folks who have not a jot of understanding of the dynamics of a body in motion.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:07 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_Fong View Post
Would a pirate suit work with a BMW R1150GSA, David ?

That wouldn`t be allowed, only Harley and other brands cruiser riders can wear a pirate suit when riding a motorcycle.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:31 AM   #63
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When its all said and done, if you are having a problem with your riding and someone with more experience can suggest an alternative to try... try it. It might work, or it might not. Whatever works for you is good.

For those who are still hung up about standing up (what am I saying? I ride a trials bike!) go back and watch Malcolm Smith ride in On Any Sunday.

Al.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:44 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by AlSheehan View Post
When its all said and done, if you are having a problem with your riding and someone with more experience can suggest an alternative to try... try it. It might work, or it might not. Whatever works for you is good.

For those who are still hung up about standing up (what am I saying? I ride a trials bike!) go back and watch Malcolm Smith ride in On Any Sunday.

Al.

When its all said and done there is usually more said than done.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:10 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by GSD4ME View Post
That wouldn`t be allowed, only Harley and other brands cruiser riders can wear a pirate suit when riding a motorcycle.


For the DRZ 400, Kipo has a Superman suit, cape and all

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Old 11-06-2012, 04:52 AM   #66
eepeqez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Crumpet View Post
It's all balls, just a mind game.
Does a bat or a dolphin understand anything of how sonar works?
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:59 AM   #67
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Does a bat or a dolphin understand anything of how sonar works?

"If a rider suddenly and dramatically lowers his CoG in a forest and no one is around to photograph it, does it really happen?"
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:10 AM   #68
eepeqez
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Originally Posted by woopwoop View Post
"If a rider suddenly and dramatically lowers his CoG in a forest and no one is around to photograph it, does it really happen?"
GoPro?
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:12 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff View Post
I started riding in scrambles at the age of 16 on a 500cc AJS scrambler and I must confess that that no matter where I put my 7 1/2 stones on the bike I couldn't detect any change in the suspension or handling.

And 50 years and a few stones heavier I still can't, no matter what I am riding.
I'd be really interested to hear what that was like (not so much; "they were old ill handling barges..." or the like - but a more technique related description of what DID make them jump, turn, slide and travel over the bumps)... an insight into what body input was required to pilot these type of bikes - back in the day.

Me being a product of the post-long wheel travel movement (250 mm or more) of the late 70's on, my own personal experience with riding limited (by todays standards almost zero) wheel travel mx/offroad bikes is = next to nothing. But I can only imagine* what it must have been like to punt these early type of scramblers around on rough terrain.

*I once had a chance to ride on an old Cotton 250 Scrambler (1967 model... same age as me) on some whooped out desert trails is California in the early 90's... I handed it back scratching my head, in awe of those early desert racing pioneers).

I can only accept the scenario you describe Beemerboff, where you say that any amount of body language, footpeg/weight positioning on those ancient type of machines exhibited little (or no) noticeable effect on what it seemed the bike was doing beneath you. (Most likely bucking and headshaking violently on every rut and corrugation? ).

By comparison - in my own personal expereience - I do know that even subtle variations in seated/standing riding stance, fore/aft body position in turns, the weight/un-weighting of the motocycles footpegs (inside or outside) when taking fast sweeping curves on either hard or loose surfaces, the placement of ones inside foot (out front - mx style) or to the rear (speedway style) when cornering, all have a considerable difference to traction/handling characteristics on a modern MX bike (which has perhaps three times the wheel travel of the AJS that you mentioned?).

I agree 100% with you rationale that "whatever works for you" is fine and that one doesn't necessarily need to know the physics of the "how & why" behind the theory... just that it does. AlSheehans approach that if one recieves a riding tip or instruction from a more experienced rider and as result, it seems to work for you... then great. For sure, the old hand on bars/bum on seat... "if you fall off your doing it wrong" practical system of learning by doing is usually the means by which (almost) all of us learnt the basic fundamental skills of riding.

But in this day and age (especially on forums like "the prefect line" etc.) there seems to be a greater than ever percentage of people (thanks to the www. ) that believe thay can improve on the basics, if only they just apply themeselves to the theory of it all dilligently enough... and the "web" is a bastion of web facts, formulas and mathematical equations just waiting for the dedicated adventure rider to grasp.

It was Alexander Pope who was missquoted as saying "A little knowlege is a dangerous thing...", which in the wrong hands, can be the case. But in an attempt to assert ones own limited grasp of a particular subject - the avid Webventure Rider* may often grab on to one isolated concept or principle (in a very complex and dynamic subject) and hold onto it blindly.

* Webventure rider.... Ha-ha... It just came to me now... I'm gonna patent it.

In many respects the whole CoG debate (both on here, the perfect line, other places on ADVRider and even other forums) reminds me often of this phenomenon. Many ADVRiders (not everyone by all means... but many) tend to adopt one isolated part of the whole "riding technique/mechanical physics" equation and then embrace it as their own personal "be all/end all" indoctrinated version of what is deemed to be superior riding technique.

You've all witnessed it (some have preached it)... "counter steering", "weight the outside peg", stand up/sit down, two finger braking vs whole hand vs one finger, CoG, brake bias front to rear, to ABS or not to ABS... what was the question poor Yorrick? You know the deal... and it's not uncommon... in fact it is human, and comes as part of the learning process - often the result of something a rider has heard or picked up from a riding scool session or instructional video/article etc.

And while this is a positive experience (that they got at least one or two gems out of all the information they were bombarded with), what usually manifests itself after that pont, is that in their enthusiasm and willingness to share this newly discovered pearl of wisdom - a revelation within the sphere of motorcycling, oftimes the "message" can get distorted as it is passed along and/or the individual clings onto this particular part of the doctrine... focusses on it... largely disregarding (or unaware/ignorant in the first place) of many of the other dynamics that come into play.

And THIS is where (I believe) the whole CoG debate (amongst others) often comes off the rails in a place like this. A little bit of (isolated) knowlege (sometimes missinformation) purported as "fact" and adopted as such.

"Just becuase you don't believe in gravity, does not mean that you CAN fly..."

Moments of inertia, acceleration/decelaration, braking forces and their effect relative the motorcycles CoG - which is a dynamic, not a constant. Tyre contact patch, road surface friction/surface angle, lean angle/trail, rake angle as relates to suspension movement, compression/rebound stroke rates etc. etc. etc. All weigh in to this topic and that's even before we park the carcass of the average ADVRider on the saddle somewhere.

I get an amount of enjoyment in reading these type of discussions sometimes, because it often shows how much (dis)information there is out there on the "web" that is passed of as fact.

Suffice to say this; when I was a young fella in the early 80's and attended some of those first "Stephen Galls riding schools" riders like; Mark Pace, Pelle Granquist and Anthony Gunter, all taught the simple basics of head/shoulders/elbow and knee positioning and their relative importance to one onother on an MX bike in different situations on a modern motocross track (whoops, ruts, multiple jumps, tabletops and corners/berms). A lot of it has just become second nature, and 30 years later... regardless if I am on a 450cc MX bike, out on and enduro trail on a 650cc dualsport or aboard big twin cylinder offroader on a gravel forest road somewhere, it is all just part of the muscle memory... happens by instinct (not to say that I don't get out of practise sometimes).

Dare I say that when Beemerboff backs his R100 GS into a soft sandy/gravel turn somewhere in the great Oz outback... that it's the lessons from the old AJS day's all those years ago, embedded in his bone marrow somewhere that kick in... It becomes reflex... instinct... years of having done it that way. Is his way the right way... or mine... or Stephen Galls? The answer is both... or ie: all of them; whatever works for you - be open to everything and then select that which gives the best result.

In my experience of many of the guided/instructional rides that I've been on over the years, where student/n00bs have "binned it" and we ended up having to drag them up out of the "spinach"... It was the result of the individual focussing on just ONE isolated aspect of riding technique - too much... you've all heard of this before; it's called "over-thinking it".

I believe that this happens from time to time with regards the technical discussions too...
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troy safari carpente screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 06:59 AM Reason: Must hev fixt spulling on the 13000th post
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:57 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eepeqez View Post
Does a bat or a dolphin understand anything of how sonar works?
Obviously, they invented it!
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:07 AM   #71
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I have to admit, to my great shame, that I have not read all the pages previous. But that still won't stop me asking a question of course.......

It's this whole CofG thing I don't get, or rather how the misunderstanding of it is so entrenched in bike stuff.

I mean really, if I'm sitting on my arse in the dirt (which happens with alarming regularity I might add), how can my CofG be up on THAT branch on the nearest Wandoo tree?
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #72
AlSheehan
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Originally Posted by MODNROD View Post
I have to admit, to my great shame, that I have not read all the pages previous. But that still won't stop me asking a question of course.......

It's this whole CofG thing I don't get, or rather how the misunderstanding of it is so entrenched in bike stuff.

I mean really, if I'm sitting on my arse in the dirt (which happens with alarming regularity I might add), how can my CofG be up on THAT branch on the nearest Wandoo tree?
Quantum Physics.

It probably all started with someone who could ride, but didn't understand physics. When pushed to explain or pass on what they were doing they used the wrong words, but because they were such a revered rider no one challenged it. Then through the power of memes, a new old wives tale is born!

Yes when you stand up, you move your CofG up... that's why it takes effort.

Relax. You are perfectly normal. Your CofG hasn't abandoned you.

Al.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:32 PM   #73
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I had heard of these COG threads. This is the first time I actually made an attempt to read some of it....

The benefit of standing on the pegs? You're adding a bunch of rather sophisticated suspension parts to the bike, your extremities. If I have to use COG in the answer, then I guess standing on the pegs would allow for quick movement of COG in the horizontal plane in response to terrain unevenness.
Or, another way to look at it, is it allows the COG to remain on your line, even when the bike is bucking about.

And this is scientific opinion!





Wait, what?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:53 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woopwoop View Post
"If a rider suddenly and dramatically lowers his CoG in a forest and no one is around to photograph it, does it really happen?"


Shhh......it happens, and when it is involved, someone took a dirty picture.

Ps does anyone have the it ability to calculate troys word count on adv?
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:25 PM   #75
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Quote:
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Shhh......it happens, and when it is involved, someone took a dirty picture.

Ps does anyone have the it ability to calculate troys word count on adv?

It's dark and cold and miserable in Sweden , if he's not typing or riding , his fingers start to work on something that will make him go blind ..... I like that he types soooooooo much , It saves the rest of us who understand such deep meaningful subjects the problem of having enough time to divulge such heady information .
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