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Old 06-20-2013, 09:47 AM   #2866
mike54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
Indy 2012 three people highsided in the same corner. Rossi broke his leg at Mugello in a highside. Marquez had a massive highside at Austin this year. Smith had two highsides at Mugello, and Crutchlow has had at least one highside this year. The cause is different, cold tires usually, but the result is the same. MotoGP riders are getting a comparable amount of air to their 500cc forebears.

This is my point: racing is about finding the limit. Back in the 500 days, the riders knew that if they got too close to the limit, they would get tossed off, so they built in a safety margin. Now, the riders know that the TC will go a long way towards saving a highside, so the cozy right up the limit, and get as close as possible. They both end up highsiding as often, because riders have the same risk tolerance.

The same is true of increased safety in cars. Ordinary drivers now take more risks because they have ABS, air bags and structural protection to protect them. More crashes, though with the improved passive safety measures, fewer injuries.
I don't disagree with any of that. I think the original point roadholder was trying to make was that with TC riders are safer, without it there would be more high sides, like in the 80's and 90's. I think the reason for the high sides in that era wasn't really the lack of TC but the hair trigger power band on the 2 strokes. I was also unsure of the ratio of high sides between the 2 eras. I'm not sure that TC is such a boon to rider safety because, as you say, riders will always push to the edge. Airbags and helmet technology etc. have certainly made the sport safer than it was. We could use some track improvements though IMHO.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:29 AM   #2867
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Originally Posted by mike54 View Post
I don't disagree with any of that. I think the original point roadholder was trying to make was that with TC riders are safer, without it there would be more high sides, like in the 80's and 90's.
And this is precisely where I disagree. TC does not make riders safer, it merely encourages them to ride closer to the limit, which means they crash just as often, and just as heavily. They take the same risk, but they have to push harder to take that risk.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:32 AM   #2868
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
And this is precisely where I disagree. TC does not make riders safer, it merely encourages them to ride closer to the limit, which means they crash just as often, and just as heavily. They take the same risk, but they have to push harder to take that risk.
Agreed. That's the way of it. Hockey players never wore helmets in the past. But they didn't loft the puck and high-stick all the time either.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:38 AM   #2869
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
And this is precisely where I disagree. TC does not make riders safer, it merely encourages them to ride closer to the limit, which means they crash just as often, and just as heavily. They take the same risk, but they have to push harder to take that risk.
then we agree.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:41 AM   #2870
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
And this is precisely where I disagree. TC does not make riders safer, it merely encourages them to ride closer to the limit, which means they crash just as often, and just as heavily. They take the same risk, but they have to push harder to take that risk.
Take away TC, and I'd put money on it taking roughly half a lap before they were pushing just as hard without traction control, because it only takes one guy to say "I know the bike can hold at this speed / lean angle / level of grip" to force the others right to the same edge. Granted, it would probably also be less than race distance before someone binned it as a result, but the other frontrunners would be trying to back off 0.00001%, not even 1% or 3%.

I think there's a parallel in ski racing, where the international governing body (FIS) recently mandated that skis must have turning radii not seen on a race course in a couple of decades, in the name of safety—the espoused theory was that they'd reduce speed and also prevent some of the force-loading on the body that results from modern techniques. The short-term result has been that the fast guys still go just as fast, look a bit less polished in doing it, and are actually generating more force...because they're still more fit than racers of two decades prior and still benefitting from two decades of technique development.

To be competitive at the top level in any sport requires that level of drive; particularly in "risky" sports like skiing and moto racing, it also requires the desire to be on that knife-edge of control. I don't care if you put the MotoGP field on Ninja250s with OEM tires and suspension, they'll find ways to take risks.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:48 AM   #2871
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Anytime you build in safety margins people are going to push it. The extra runoff tarmac at so many tracks prove it. People look for the limit and if they cross it they just cruise back onto the track and no harm no foul. This encourages more corner speed because the stakes are so much lower. Get rid of TC and the same guys will still be upfront, but laptimes will slow, because you can only bounce on your head so many times.
As per bike versus car safety. I once was the first one to crash in Friday practice and broke a bunch of bones. They carted me to the hospital and the nurse commented that "we" were racing so they could expect some extras patients that weekend. However she said we kept them busier but the car guys were usually bad when they came in. Head and internal injuries versus broken extremities.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:49 AM   #2872
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Originally Posted by kbroderick View Post
I don't care if you put the MotoGP field on Ninja250s with OEM tires and suspension, they'll find ways to take risks.
I'd watch that!
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:16 PM   #2873
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Originally Posted by roadholder View Post

This picture isn't really fair. It is just they way Gardner rode all the time.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:45 PM   #2874
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I don't disagree really but F1 has been dealing with this for years and they banned traction control a few years ago.
Traction control (and much earlier, ABS) was banned in F1 right around the time roadgoing vehicles were delivered with [pretty advanced versions of] those driver aids as standard.

It may not be apples to apples as F1 is an order of magnitude larger buisiness than MotoGP (and thus can be more "take it or leave it" with rules), but one could extrapolate that TC will be banned in MotoGP right around the time 90% of the bikes at your local stealership have TC.

Is this all supposition based on cooincidence? Possibly...but it makes a good discussion topic either way.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:51 PM   #2875
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Originally Posted by mike54 View Post
I don't believe the 4 stroke engines have the same hair trigger. However without TC we may indeed see more get-offs. Just not as many spectacular airborne examples we saw back then.
Agreed, but don't forget today's Moto GP bikes are making 100 hp more then an early to mid 1980's 500 as well! As many have pointed out accidents are still happening but for the most part they (fortunately) seem to be tamer...such as last week's low-side fest. Gear is better of course, but you don't see the same level of scary high sides, and Dr. Costa's name doesn't get mentioned five times each broadcast as the commentators walk through the injury list of plaster-adorned riders in the pits as we are shown pics of Mick Doohan's thumb operated rear brake due to his non-functioning foot!
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:39 PM   #2876
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Originally Posted by mdubya View Post


This picture isn't really fair. It is just they way Gardner rode all the time.
Plus, if memory serves, Gardner saved that.

Can anyone confirm or deny? Phillip Island 1990? Broke a fairing stay coming down and went on to win?
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:42 PM   #2877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdubya View Post
This picture isn't really fair. It is just they way Gardner rode all the time.




There were some epic moonshots during the late 80's-early 90's. Anyone else remember Chili and Doohan doing a synchro-highside? I think that it was in Germany, but don't remember for certain. They both lost the rears, got pitched, flew, and landed in exactly the same way, at the same time.

I gotta dig out my old VHS copies.................

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Old 06-20-2013, 07:49 PM   #2878
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The stay was Mag so it snapped like a old mans hip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
Plus, if memory serves, Gardner saved that.

Can anyone confirm or deny? Phillip Island 1990? Broke a fairing stay coming down and went on to win?
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:01 PM   #2879
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Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
Plus, if memory serves, Gardner saved that.

Can anyone confirm or deny? Phillip Island 1990? Broke a fairing stay coming down and went on to win?
Yes he did and ended up with Stephen and the twins rather larger than normal. I remember he broke the fairing when he came back down onto the bike, I thought he was going to be black flagged as it was hanging off. Always liked Wayne, very gritty rider, who literally had very BIG balls that weekend. (I have a pair of his Rothmans kushitani gloves (he's wearing Nankai in this pic) that I bid on and won at the riders for health auction with Randy. there made of kangaroo leather and have very little padding unlike modern gloves)
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #2880
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Originally Posted by Bigger Al View Post



There were some epic moonshots during the late 80's-early 90's. Anyone else remember Chili and Doohan doing a synchro-highside? I think that it was in Germany, but don't remember for certain. They both lost the rears, got pitched, flew, and landed in exactly the same way, at the same time.

http://youtu.be/ChuyTfMaJKI?t=3m10s


That link will start at the synchronised somersaults, but there are a bunch of other 500cc highsides from the same era on this five-minute vid, with commentary from Lawson, Schwantz, Mamola, Gardner etc.


Edit: thanks Nostop for the corroboration.
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