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Old 12-02-2012, 02:48 PM   #436
kyns
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
Yeah, it's a skill.
Yet no one here is able to explane how EXACTLY to do it. AND why to do it.

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Old 12-02-2012, 03:04 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by kyns View Post
Yet no one here is able to explane how EXACTLY to do it. AND why to do it.

I learned it by way of mistake, really. Didn't set out to at the time. I made what I thought was a big mistake, and didn't it work out. So, out of dumb luck, a lesson learned.

Why do it?

Cause I can.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:10 PM   #438
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You are advicing me to try a technique that will possibly put me in a body bag. I think i'm entitled to some more info.

1. Have you ever personally succesfully used this technique ??

2. How EXACTLY you initiate the front slide and at what part of corner entry ?? ( I expect a step by step tutorial, so i don't end up at the gravel... or dead... )

3. Could the pros slide their front just as a result of a lot of corner speed, rather than intentionally doing it ??


Question number 2 ecpecially.

If it's a skill, you guys should be able to explane how and at what part of corner entry you do it. At what kind of corners you use it and why...

Because you can... that's cute...
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:14 PM   #439
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yo !!
Hold up there boys.

No one and I mean NO ONE should try anything like this without proper professional instruction on a race track where there are medical personnel on site if you have a problem .

This is not for the amature to attempt on their own .
I have some experience sliding down the tarmack, it ain't fun , it hurts even in full approved race gear.

Do not let your youth and exuberance over load your skill level. Most of all don't try this stuff on the public road.
try it? no way we are talking about the motogp circus!
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:29 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
I learned it by way of mistake, really. Didn't set out to at the time. I made what I thought was a big mistake, and didn't it work out. So, out of dumb luck, a lesson learned.

Why do it?

Cause I can.

You are still totally failing to explane how exactly, at what part of the entry, at what kind of corners, why, what you gain doing so ??

So far you are saying a whole lot of nothing.

No need for you pro internet ride gods to get a hissy fit. Just answer my three little questions.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:53 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by kyns View Post
Yet no one here is able to explane how EXACTLY to do it. AND why to do it.

Speaking to Oxley about the days when he was just getting started with racing motorcycles, Spencer recalls, ‘I’d be out in the rain, using the slick Louisiana clay, trying to learn to change direction at any lean angle. I could judge when the bike would stop sliding. Right at the apex I’d pick it up so it’s pivoting around the front and the front’s not pushing anymore, then I could just drift turn. Think how important that is in a 130mph sweeper, when you’ve got the bike on its side and you know exactly where it’s going to end up.’ ‘When I was on top of my game, I could go through that 130mph corner on a four-inch wide line, lap after lap,’ adds Spencer.

Back in the day my bro' and I saw Freddie on the old Erv K TZ750 and were mighty impressed. Later, Freddie started doing this regularly (he won this race by the way and yes, that is an intentional front end slide)



I used to race Supermoto and there was an Argentinian fast guy I would try to follow and he would slide the front regularly. After chatting with him he explained the trick is to overload the front so it pushes in a controlled manner. The idea is not to do it on the brakes because you're going to crash and you're not really controlling the motorcycle, just getting lucky.

The trick is to enter a turn and find where the front loses grip and completes the arc to the apex where you regain grip and can complete the turn. Think of it as a form of managing understeer. The front is following the arc you'd ideally like if it had the grip. Slow down to get the grip and lose time. Push the front and gain time.

Probably best learned on something like an XR100 on dirt and just push the front against the throttle. You can do it all day long in sloppy clay.

Then you can try it on the road



Yes, he crashed.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:51 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by JNRobert View Post
Speaking to Oxley about the days when he was just getting started with racing motorcycles, Spencer recalls, ‘I’d be out in the rain, using the slick Louisiana clay, trying to learn to change direction at any lean angle. I could judge when the bike would stop sliding. Right at the apex I’d pick it up so it’s pivoting around the front and the front’s not pushing anymore, then I could just drift turn. Think how important that is in a 130mph sweeper, when you’ve got the bike on its side and you know exactly where it’s going to end up.’ ‘When I was on top of my game, I could go through that 130mph corner on a four-inch wide line, lap after lap,’ adds Spencer.

Back in the day my bro' and I saw Freddie on the old Erv K TZ750 and were mighty impressed. Later, Freddie started doing this regularly (he won this race by the way and yes, that is an intentional front end slide)



I used to race Supermoto and there was an Argentinian fast guy I would try to follow and he would slide the front regularly. After chatting with him he explained the trick is to overload the front so it pushes in a controlled manner. The idea is not to do it on the brakes because you're going to crash and you're not really controlling the motorcycle, just getting lucky.

The trick is to enter a turn and find where the front loses grip and completes the arc to the apex where you regain grip and can complete the turn. Think of it as a form of managing understeer. The front is following the arc you'd ideally like if it had the grip. Slow down to get the grip and lose time. Push the front and gain time.

Probably best learned on something like an XR100 on dirt and just push the front against the throttle. You can do it all day long in sloppy clay.

Then you can try it on the road



Yes, he crashed.
Cool, finally, how and why, thanks.

So basically it is not a techniqe for corners where you need to use heavy front brake, but for fast sweepers that you just kinda smoothly " cruise " trough.

I don't see that happening in moto gp however, maybe modern tyres/bikes work differently. More power on the modern bikes to get rear wide after apex.
What i see happening in moto gp is riders sliding the rear in and out of corners. Sliding the rear trough a fast sweeper would imo have same effect/result than what Spencer did. But that was long time ago.

Ok, maybe it is/was a technique, but i think i keep the front grippy. I have never seen any current moto gp rider do this.

kyns screwed with this post 12-02-2012 at 04:59 PM
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:06 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by kyns View Post
So basically it is not a techniqe for corners where you need to use heavy front brake, but for fast sweepers that you just kinda smoothly " cruise " trough.
cruise isn't the word I would use. And smooth is everywhere. I think it's closer to being on or over the limit of grip and when you shut the throttle (or after you've released the brakes) this pushes the front.

It may or may not be used exactly the same way as Freddie in MotoGP today but I'm sure at some point we've seen all the fast guys push the front.





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Old 12-02-2012, 05:14 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by JNRobert View Post
cruise isn't the word I would use. And smooth is everywhere. I think it's closer to being on or over the limit of grip and when you shut the throttle (or after you've released the brakes) this pushes the front.

It may or may not be used exactly the same way as Freddie in MotoGP today but I'm sure at some point we've seen all the fast guys push the front.





I've seen front slides like those, but consider those as: "oh shit, did i just save that" kinda slides. Not intentional slides.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:19 PM   #445
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Graeme Crosby in his superbike days before he went to GP's regularly intentionally slid the front end of his superbike [ late 70's ] , there is picture of him doing it but I can't find it. He was partnered with Tony Hatton in an endurance race., Tony could not figure out how Graeme got around some corners so quick until Graeme told him to slide the front. Tony tried it ,admitted it worked but it was too close to the ragged edge for him. I guess that's the difference between a top international rider & a top national rider
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:36 PM   #446
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Graeme Crosby in his superbike days before he went to GP's regularly intentionally slid the front end of his superbike [ late 70's ] , there is picture of him doing it but I can't find it.
I've been looking got that too! My recollection of his technique was that when he got in deep he would flick the bars all the way to the lock and whack the throttle. Remember thinking at the time, how big do your balls have to be to try that just to see what happens ..?
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:52 PM   #447
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[QUOTE=trustme;20165067]Graeme Crosby in his superbike days before he went to GP's regularly intentionally slid the front end of his superbike [ late 70's ] , there is picture of him doing it but I can't find it. He was partnered with Tony Hatton in an endurance race., Tony could not figure out how Graeme got around some corners so quick until Graeme told him to slide the front. Tony tried it ,admitted it worked but it was too close to the ragged edge for him. I guess that's the difference between a top international rider & a top national rider[


Tecniques aside, Crosby allways looked a little loose but from memory didn't fall off that often.
A very funny and entertaining fellow on and off track!

JM
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:25 PM   #448
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Franticly re-reading Croz' biography to find any of his comments on cornering.... not too optimistic but I had to laugh at this: from his first attempt at the Isle of Mann, 1979 on a Moriwaki 1000?

"I had only one frightening moment. When I came around Kates corner on the last practice lap, the left handlebar broke clean off in my hand. I was left holding a clip on with the clutch lever and cable still attached. It was rather difficult steering it back to the pit area one handed".

Different planet to us mortals.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:04 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by kyns View Post
Yet no one here is able to explane how EXACTLY to do it. AND why to do it.

Drif and JNRobert have done a good job describing the technique. And yes, a mere mortal (painfully mortal) like me can do it. Best to practice in the dirt.

As you hopefully know, if you are not actively braking or actively having the throttle at least cracked open in a turn, you are going to crash. On a dirt bike, you brake early and get on the throttle early. So try getting off the brakes as you enter a turn, give a little throttle as you normally would, and then simply roll the throttle closed and this will induce the front end to slide. You will want to snatch the throttle open again pretty quickly so you don't eat dirt, but as you get more and more comfortable, you can milk the slides to be longer and more lurid.

The technique is pretty much the same on pavement. I have only done it on a supermoto bike, never a sport bike, which I gave up about 10 years ago. You can do it without cracking the throttle and simply by releasing the front brake where you might normally still be trail braking. You have to be pushing hard enough that you might feel you are into the turn too hot.

Using the front end slide to scrub off the excess speed and then using the throttle to right the bike will open your eyes to getting through the corner faster and tidier than you ever imagined. It will also give you a big thrill because you will now be in possession of an over the top, very advanced technique.

For me, it is a very subtle thing and probably all but undetectable from a bystander, but you will know it when the front starts to slide.

What starts as a panic move to stop a sure crash turns out to be a very useful and effective technique.

I had not done this consistently for a few years on the supermoto track, but this past summer started doing it again, very sparingly. I use it mostly through a third gear (65 MPH) left hander that is slightly more than 90 degrees that needs to be finished tight so that you can straighten out a chicane which follows it.

I practice my supermoto skills in the dirt first.

I have not raced for many years, so the skills I like to learn are purely for cheap thrills and for having them at my disposal should I need them.

I look at track riding as an artistic expression; slides, wheelies, excessive and unnecessary lean angles are all part of that expression.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #450
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Croz's bio didn't give up too many cornering / sliding secrets but I have an excellent list of pubs near english race tracks, priorities!


Just for the sliding / cornering discussion, from Peter Cliffords 1982 book "The art & science of motorcycle racing" (Clifford was a technical journalist and road racer, engineer and editor of Motorcourse in the eighties).
A quote about the difficulties of describing handling techniqiues...

"There is no established language to convey the exact feeling that the handlebars give as the front wheel begins to slide and turn in, the timing required to gently ease on the throttle so that the rear wheel begins to slide in harmony and the weight is transferred from the front to back wheel, the front wheel being hauled into the inside of the corner by the pull of the chain."

Essentially this style has been around from the 1980's and is a well established method of aligning the bike in the direction you want it to go, Mamola was good at it.

Just another quote to set the cat amongst the pigeons regarding learning on the dirt...
"It has often been suggested that American riders are able to control a sliding motorcycle because of their dirt track racing experience. Roberts (KR senior) disagrees: "I don't think that riding a dirt tracker teaches you anything very much that you can't learn on a road racer, but I think I learnt to be more agressive and determined because of dirt track racing in the States. When you are on the start line on your Yamaha among eighteen other guys on Harleys, and all the Harley fans in the crowd are throwing their beer cans at you, then that teaches you to go fast.""

Amazing what you can learn from the past,what's that saying? Standing on your grandfathers shoulders?

I should take this shit to The Perfect line, I could have a feeding frenzy
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