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Old 10-24-2013, 04:18 PM   #5116
ErikY.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0mb3r View Post
As JL said he braked late and took a wider line
Jorge's perception of what exactly happened isn't gonna be the same as an external observer. Heat of the moment, Ludicrous Speed, intense focus and all that.
Some have stated that MM was in the wrong. If that's the case, then I don't blame anyone who wants a review. The rules are there and a review is legal so I can see their point.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:42 PM   #5117
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Originally Posted by ErikY. View Post
Jorge's perception of what exactly happened isn't gonna be the same as an external observer.
your missing the point JL said he ran wide and it was 50/50
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:51 PM   #5118
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My guess is that the touch at PI wasn't completely accidental, and that Lorenzo would like to dish out more payback for Jerez. Taking out a teammate sure isn't something Pedrosa can ever get away with again, but Lorenzo's ironic statements regarding Marquez and penalties might be a foreshadowing that he's ready to make the last two rounds a little more physical.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that was one somber pre-event conference. Gotta wonder what happened before cameras were rolling.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:55 PM   #5119
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Originally Posted by b0mb3r View Post
your missing the point JL said he ran wide and it was 50/50
Your comment about Yamaha being "tossers" would seem call into question your impartiality in this matter. Notwithstanding the fact that it would be difficult for an international corporation to indulge in this Aussie pastime, this is an area where MM has previous form and to rely on JL’s recollection of a split second may be a bit generous.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:56 PM   #5120
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Seems to me that the stress is building big time .... Not a fan of JL tho, seems he only gets the title when Rossi and Stoner hurt themselves
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:20 PM   #5121
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Originally Posted by b0mb3r View Post
your missing the point JL said he ran wide and it was 50/50
Lol. No that was the point of my argument.

It's like in hockey when they call for a video replay to see if the puck went in. Ask 4 players and you'll get different answers. Their opinion doesn't count when you watch the replay.
BTW I'm a fan of them all; no favourite really. I have to admit that Jorge is incredibly smooth though, and honourable of him to admit 50/50 blame. But he's on a team, and they may see it differently.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:48 PM   #5122
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Tyres

[QUOTE=ZLTFUL;22628022]Why is everyone shocked and amazed and acting like this has never happened before?
Rossi last year...(Hector Barbera and Casey Stoner also had chunking issues)


Dani in 2009...


http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newsid=7421



It isn't new...it has happened before and it will happen again.


The tyre companies have experience making tyres, rubber/carbon blends/curing/duro and all that goes into a tyre is/should not be a once off test and one would expect a process of evolution.
The fact that this has occured in the past and again recently makes it unnacceptable and at least indictable.
Expecting the riders to run on tyres that chunk at the speeds they ride at is unnacceptable.
Even a small amount of rubber flying off at 300KMP (200MPH) hitting the following rider could have significant consequences.
Furthermore shortening the race distance and enforcing a bike change to compensate for inadequate tyre life & reliability is only dealing with the symptom and not the root cause.
For anyone old enough to remember what happened to Barry Sheene when his rear tyre blew at around 170MPH he/we were very lucky to have him return to racing after his rehab.
MOTOGP bikes are producing approx 100HP more than Barry Sheenes Suzuki did at the time, so I see the potential for serious injury if the tyre issue is not resolved.

Rant over.

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Old 10-24-2013, 08:15 PM   #5123
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
swimmer...several publications are available on the subject...
Excuse my laziness...do those publications show that motoGP tires are the 'winner', or just that tires in general are given the berries?

No question motoGP tires take a beating, but I'd be VERY surprised if overall the loads of a motoGP tire are even close to an F1 tire, except for possibly acceleration. Even then I'd expect them to be close given the mass and power of the car relative to the bike, possibly with the nod to the car when you add in aero loading.

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Anyway, I won't deny that the rotational forces in top fuel dragsters are immense but you are placing force on the tire in 2 planes...while a motorcycle tire up to 4 planes of directional force.


Eh...I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. In the end, the math still all just resolves to three space.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:20 PM   #5124
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I will defer to the physicists and engineers for the specifics (found in those publications written by PhDs in those fields) but, the short of it is that in a Formula 1 car, the stresses are truly only on an X and Y plane.
Motorcycle tires on the other hand are constantly changing on the vertical plane as the vertical plane ain't always vertical.
Not to mention that a lot of time, the braking forces of a MotoGP bike are only on one, the smaller, tire.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:06 PM   #5125
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Guys ... does it really matter which motorsport places most stress on the tire? (Yes I know, a claim was made ... But how would it help us to know whether it was defensible?)

When you think about it, if MotoGP places more stress on the tyre then that is only because the tyre builders are supplying MotoGP with a tyre capable of transferring more stress. Which means they could probably supply any other motorsport with a tyre of similar capacity, if there happened to be a good reason for doing so.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:12 AM   #5126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm-2008 View Post
The tyre companies have experience making tyres, rubber/carbon blends/curing/duro and all that goes into a tyre is/should not be a once off test and one would expect a process of evolution.
The fact that this has occured in the past and again recently makes it unnacceptable and at least indictable.
Expecting the riders to run on tyres that chunk at the speeds they ride at is unnacceptable.
Even a small amount of rubber flying off at 300KMP (200MPH) hitting the following rider could have significant consequences.
Furthermore shortening the race distance and enforcing a bike change to compensate for inadequate tyre life & reliability is only dealing with the symptom and not the root cause.
For anyone old enough to remember what happened to Barry Sheene when his rear tyre blew at around 170MPH he/we were very lucky to have him return to racing after his rehab.
MOTOGP bikes are producing approx 100HP more than Barry Sheenes Suzuki did at the time, so I see the potential for serious injury if the tyre issue is not resolved.

Rant over.

JM-2008
I don't disagree with you one bit. But where was the outrage in prior instances?
Personally, I hate the spec tire rules in a series like MotoGP. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorcycle racing. This is supposed to be where the standard is set. New technologies experimented with, new products tested in the most extreme motorcycling environment...

But instead, they pigeon-hole the teams into 2 tire options per round and rely on a single supplier to bring a tire that has to somehow mesh with 24 different riders' styles and 24 different bike setups.


Anyway, I am done with the tire discussion here. If there is enough interest in discussing it further, either IMs work or I can start another thread elsewhere.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:30 AM   #5127
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
I don't disagree with you one bit. But where was the outrage in prior instances?
Personally, I hate the spec tire rules in a series like MotoGP. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorcycle racing. This is supposed to be where the standard is set. New technologies experimented with, new products tested in the most extreme motorcycling environment...

But instead, they pigeon-hole the teams into 2 tire options per round and rely on a single supplier to bring a tire that has to somehow mesh with 24 different riders' styles and 24 different bike setups.


Anyway, I am done with the tire discussion here. If there is enough interest in discussing it further, either IMs work or I can start another thread elsewhere.
I agree with that sentiment as well. Prototype motorcycles, but spec tires. WTF?
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:58 AM   #5128
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I agree with that sentiment as well. Prototype motorcycles, but spec tires. WTF?
It is forced by the fact that only 2 or 3 riders would get the best tires.

Bridgestone, to their credit, is promising to do a better job and to provide more choices. Let's hope.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:45 AM   #5129
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
You take the worlds most powerful motorcycles, you develop a tire to take the most physically demanding stresses in motorsports and you hope for the best. Most of the time, they get it right. Sometimes, they get it wrong.

When it happened at Assen last year, nobody said, "Oh...Bridgestone must not have tested enough..."
When it happened to Dani in 2009, it was attributed to a manufacturing hiccup.
Assen hadn't been recently and radically resurfaced in 2011. And it didn't happen to all of the riders, just some of them.

Quote:
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Bridgestone came into the race with as much information as they could attain short of a top name rider on a top flight bike and a weekend worth of testing and they miscalculated.

They took a risk by supplying a tire without having 100% of the data they needed. That risk *normally* pays off...this time it didn't.
Bridgestone had been told by the circuit that the surface was very different. They knew that the bumps had been taken out, they knew that the surface had more grip. And they still chose not to test.

They didn't have all of the information they needed. They guessed everything would be OK, and they didn't want to spend the money on testing. I'm sure Casey Stoner could have been persuaded to ride his favorite track on a MotoGP bike. He was available, and lives close. But Bridgestone didn't want to pay.

And that's why this is different to the previous occasions. A significant variable had changed, and changed predictably, and Bridgestone chose to ignore it. You can only guess at what the weather will do, but you can know for certain how a surface has changed.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:11 AM   #5130
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can we look for the same thing next year at indy since the are re doing the infield?
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