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Old 11-11-2012, 06:26 PM   #1
One Less Harley OP
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NOT AN Oil thread, old school, not bike but related

Just a cautionary note-

Just pulled the motor apart on my 1969TR6. Now what does this have to do with BMW's??? Well there are similarities with the BMW and triumph in the lifters and cam. Both have the same lifter and cam design. I've always run Castrol 20w50 not motorcycle specific though. Long story short, after 7,000 miles, my new cam and resurfaced and hardness checked lifters are shot. Wow that didn't take long. One cam lobe is gone, 10 out of 12 lifters pitted, all cam lobes show pitting.

This has me very concerned about ZZDP content even in in the motorcycle Castrol 20w50. The motorcycle specific should have more, but I may still start adding ZZDP to the BMW oils also.






lobes pointed to should be the same height.

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Old 11-11-2012, 06:39 PM   #2
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If you are running "Castrol 20w50 not motorcycle specific" you're not running the right oil. Not enough (or none?) ZDDP additive like the motorcycle-specific oils nowadays have.

Snowbum goes ad nauseam explaining all this. Me, I simply use a "proper oil"....

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Old 11-11-2012, 06:42 PM   #3
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Who resurfaced the lifters? Were the originals pitted, too? Is the cam stock?
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:11 PM   #4
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I know this is a stretch being a car and all, but it illustrates the importance of ZDDP

Elgin Cams resurfaced the original lifters (no pitting on them) and checked the hardness afterwords. Cam wasn't stock lift, 270 cam, regrind. Not a very aggressive cam. More like the petrol Injected TR5.

Never gave much consideration to ZDDP for an automobile.


NOW I wonder if motorcycle Castrol will be ok in the car and help the lifters??? I'll use ZDDP anyway.

Just wanted to illustrate WHY ZDDP is important for motorcycle oils. Even though this is on a car results would be the same.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:19 PM   #5
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After having read several oil threads about how North American refined Castrol motorcycle oil is formulated differently than in Europe - I learned that Castrol was not up to the requirements of our style of engines. I started to use Spectro 4 lubricant instead. I'm trying to prevent exactly what has happened to your engine from happening here. Why did you go for a non-specific motorcycle Castrol oil - did you see some advantage to using it? We are talking about a TR6 bike here and not the car aren't we?
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:27 PM   #6
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This is on a Car- but results of using oil w/o ZDDP would be the same. Kind of why I posted it up.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:34 PM   #7
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Oh, doh! I saw "Triumph" and thought motorcycle.

It's the old lifter design and metallury. Aircooled Porsches have a lot of discussions on ZDDP.

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Old 11-11-2012, 07:34 PM   #8
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If oil has a sort of "seal" on the front that said something about being fuel saving, DON'T use that oil with flat tappets. Read quite an article about it a few years ago from a performance parts warehouse that I deal with. Right after I had read the article I talked with a fellow who had a cam go bad (flat lobes) during a 20 minute break in on a race engine. The older formulations of oil (like SF rated vs newer SN, or whatever letter they're up to) have more of the Zinc (ZDDP) that flat tappets need. I'm no oil expert and am making no claim to be, but that info might be helpful. I go for the older SF rated oil in my bikes and older flat tappet car engines. FWIW...Valvoline 4-stroke "motorcycle" oil is SF rated. Also, the newer oils (fuel saving) may/will also cause slippage problems with wet clutches.

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Old 11-11-2012, 07:35 PM   #9
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ZDDP was reduced in automotive oils thanks to the EPA. It was believed that it would shorten the life of catalytic converters. 20-50 was supposed to unaffected because it is not used in modern cars. You might contact Castrol and ask them what the concentration of zinc is in their (I assume) GTX 20-50. Anything less than 1000 ppm is insufficient. There is no reason not not to run motorcycle oil in your Triumph. I understand that a lot of the Porsche guys are running Brad Penn oil, who specialize in oil for performance engines. It's interesting to note that the SAE, who set the standards for oils and engine wear, used a Buick engine for the original tests, because it had a reputation for rapid cam and lifter wear! Tom Andrews, a manufacturer of Harley cams and Nascar cams, is emphatic that multi-viscosity oils should not be used with his cams.

That cam may not be very aggressive as far as lift and duration are concerned, but the ramps look fairly steep. If so, proper camshaft break in would be required (this is not a bad idea even with stock cams), as well as a boost of zinc, and if oil control is very good, the addition of moly.

I appreciate your posting of the pics. Some BMW riders are still using the cheapest oil they can buy, or changing it infrequently; zinc is consumed as the oil is used, as well as the viscosity breaking down. Some are getting away with it. Others are not.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:08 AM   #10
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How does one find out how much ZDDP is in any particular oil?

And I have seen several riders post that they would add ZDDP or use an additive that has ZDDP. I've never seen a mention of what this additive is. Anybody know the name of such an additive?
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
How does one find out how much ZDDP is in any particular oil?

And I have seen several riders post that they would add ZDDP or use an additive that has ZDDP. I've never seen a mention of what this additive is. Anybody know the name of such an additive?
every auto store (NAPA, AutoZone, etc carries it... Rislone, ZDDP Plus, etc.

But it's easiest to use diesel-rated oils imho.... diesel engines must have the zinc and don't have catalytics. I use Shell Rotella, having used it for 20+ years in marine diesels...

Quoted from Wikipedia:

Motorcycle usage

Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The lack of "friction modifiers" in Rotella means they do not interfere with wet clutch operations. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). Used oil analysis (UOA) reports on BobIsTheOilGuy.com have shown wear metals levels comparable to oils marketed as motorcycle-specific
.

as always, ymmv.....

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Old 11-12-2012, 06:05 AM   #12
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There is a product I use on my airplane (wow, talk about not motorcycle related) called CamGuard. It was developed to help prevent cam damage from engines that sit long times between runs. They also offer a version for cars. http://aslcamguard.com/wp/wp-content...O-BROCHURE.pdf

I have seen the same damage on aircraft engines, primarily Lycomings where the cam sits high in the engine and tend to start a little dry. When I started using this product I noticed a marked drop in iron on my oil analysis. This is primarily from the cylinder bore.

This is the only additive product I use in any of my vehicles.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
How does one find out how much ZDDP is in any particular oil?

And I have seen several riders post that they would add ZDDP or use an additive that has ZDDP. I've never seen a mention of what this additive is. Anybody know the name of such an additive?

Been to several places-NAPA, Autzone,Parts America(whatever it is now)-nobody had or had even heard. Shown online, product not shipped.

Environmental regs?
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeckm View Post
But it's easiest to use diesel-rated oils imho.... diesel engines must have the zinc and don't have catalytics. I use Shell Rotella, having used it for 20+ years in marine diesels...
I might be in the same boat soon. The town I live in has an extremely limited selection of oil. Zero motorcycle specific options. GTX, Valvolene, or Valucraft (autozone brand) are pretty much the only options. You use the same weight diesel oil? 20w-50 is available? I might have to give that a try.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:42 AM   #15
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I've been using Rotella in my GL1000 for years with no problems at all. Cams still look new every time I have the valve covers off to adjust the valves. Plus, it's cheap! Win-win.
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