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Old 12-01-2012, 08:00 AM   #61
tod701
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Originally Posted by shrubitup View Post
Yes, all good. One Wilderness area i say should be open to ORVs is Wild Sky since it was falsely designated unfortunately. Place is littered with forest road, logging camps, mines, skid roads, logging cables, timber sales, antennae, mining claims, etc. and they still made it Wilderness. Same thing is happening to areas near Oly Natl Forest. I call it a land grab. A buffer to the buffer. Soon that buffer will need another buffer. Too many buffers. Manage existing Wilderness such that the user has to get deep within rather than simply cross a magical line that somehow provides serenity whereas other side of the line in the sand is viewed as unfit for their recreation experience.
Far too often the public is misled into believing that Wilderness designation is the only way to protect land from extraction industries.

Combine that with the advocates of "re-wilding" and forcing all citizens into centralized population core areas and get what we have today.

Making matters worse is the significant ignorance of the masses, most of whom don't even know that the legal definition of Wilderness may be very different what they imagine. A study a few years ago found that over half the people in this country thought that they visit a Wilderness Area at least annually, when the actual number was less that one percent.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:11 AM   #62
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Far too often the public is misled into believing that Wilderness designation is the only way to protect land from extraction industries.
I think the real problem is the lack of understanding of the ecological, social and fiscal benefits of natural resource management and the demonization of "extraction industries."
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:09 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by shrubitup View Post
Yes, all good. One Wilderness area i say should be open to ORVs is Wild Sky since it was falsely designated unfortunately. Place is littered with forest road, logging camps, mines, skid roads, logging cables, timber sales, antennae, mining claims, etc. and they still made it Wilderness. Same thing is happening to areas near Oly Natl Forest. I call it a land grab. A buffer to the buffer. Soon that buffer will need another buffer. Too many buffers. Manage existing Wilderness such that the user has to get deep within rather than simply cross a magical line that somehow provides serenity whereas other side of the line in the sand is viewed as unfit for their recreation experience.
Howdy shrubitup,

Sir, your post makes to much sense, it contains way to much truth to be allowed to stand on its own merits. Please Sir, PLEASE in the future refrain from posting such things in this forum as it will upset the trolls who feed on such things and use the facts as you have correctly presented them to defame the poster by claiming they are encouraging the destruction of the planet and the willful denial of a safe and healthy environment for the childern. I beg of you Sir to cease positing such things as it does not sit well with those who think themselves our betters. Thank you.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:11 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbedient View Post
I think the real problem is the lack of understanding of the ecological, social and fiscal benefits of natural resource management and the demonization of "extraction industries."
Right on! We need to log all of the tree farm (roaded) on a schedule dictated by good forestry. We need that money to take care of the Forest, more trails, better maintained, for motorcycles, hikers, etc in and out of Wilderness

Many enviros- all the ones I have met- drive newer cars than I and live in bigger homes. Yet they want to lock all of it up, no logging yadda yadda. I like my motos and I like real Wilderness, preserve each in its place. Not zero-sum, win win is possible around here. I think we need better maintained moto trails, but we need to do it right as riders and not tear shit up. We really are fortunate to have the nice riding on singletrack that we do here in NCW! We need the hiking trails abandoned for the past 25 years in Wilderness opened up so people can get dispersed out of the core managed Wilderness where everyone gets herded. The Forest is for our use, extractive use and recreation.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:17 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by tod701 View Post
Far too often the public is misled into believing that Wilderness designation is the only way to protect land from extraction industries.

Combine that with the advocates of "re-wilding" and forcing all citizens into centralized population core areas and get what we have today.

Making matters worse is the significant ignorance of the masses, most of whom don't even know that the legal definition of Wilderness may be very different what they imagine. A study a few years ago found that over half the people in this country thought that they visit a Wilderness Area at least annually, when the actual number was less that one percent.
I really do not have an opinion about Wild Sky because I do not know the area there well enough. But we should use that example for leverage to argue for some maintenance and trail-building on the moto- allowed areas of the Forest.

By the way Wilderness is created by an Act of Congress. Congressmen will listen to good citizens who are community-minded and shy away from angry selfish zealots. Too bad the smooth talkers are some of the enviros, some with anti-human intent. Much like the current regime just elected...BUT WE need to be showing that we are the good community-minded citizens, as all 'sides' should.

IMO constant hateful bitching about Wilderness does not help the moto rider cause, it just sounds small-minded. there is plenty of area that will never be pulled into WIlderness or buffer or now even logged to think and advocate to use for motorized recreation. As well, we need to advocate for and follow good management or motorized will just be increasingly disliked. We can be decent and still have a lot of fun.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:54 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
Congressmen will listen to good citizens who are community-minded and shy away from angry selfish zealots.
On the issue of Wilderness, Congress tends to defer to the members representing the area.
In the case of Wild sky, Senator Murray was herself the selfish zealot.
She knew that Wild Sky was illegal.
Even the USFS told her so.
I told her so repeatedly.
Her staff told me flat out that the Senator did not care about the law if it interfered with her agenda.
If we didn't like it, we could take the federal government to court.
If based on merit, a case to exclude 20 percent of Wild Sky would prevail.
But after at least a decade or two in the court system, it is likely nobody would remember or care about the issue.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by tod701 View Post
On the issue of Wilderness, Congress tends to defer to the members representing the area.
In the case of Wild sky, Senator Murray was herself the selfish zealot.
She knew that Wild Sky was illegal.
Even the USFS told her so.
I told her so repeatedly.
Her staff told me flat out that the Senator did not care about the law if it interfered with her agenda.
If we didn't like it, we could take the federal government to court.
If based on merit, a case to exclude 20 percent of Wild Sky would prevail.
But after at least a decade or two in the court system, it is likely nobody would remember or care about the issue.
Howdy All,

And THIS folks is the truth. This was an absolute misuse of an elected officials use of PERSONAL influence to push forward an AGENDA plain and simple. The trolls from south of the border either know nothing of this event or ignore its impact on the feelings of many who live under this save the planet tyranny. If the land confiscated from public motorized use in the case of the so called wild sky wilderness is used as an example, ANY PIECE of land can be so TAKEN. This area is covered with roads, has been logged, was and in some cases is still being actively mined, people live on parts of it and still through MISUSE of the 1964 wilderness act this land was TAKEN.

And then some tolls who live south of the border wonder why we who LIVE in the PRoW are so pissed off. Take a seat at the table they say, I ask what table when the results are preordained by selfish politicians who bow to the eco-terrorests that comprise the bulk of the voters in king country both those who are still alive and those who thou they be DEAD still vote. The very sad truth of the matter is that the PRoW, like many western States has vast rural areas that are lightly populated, these areas and the people who live in them are DOMINATED by the greater number of people who live like ants crammed into the greater seattle area. Politically, those of us who for the most part support the use of motorized recreation are vastly out numbered by those who will vote against ANYTHING that rings a bell of not being in lock-step with their gia based religion.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:26 AM   #68
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Tod, I agree with everything you say and applaude your efforts. But, as you know the real problem is, as Pogo said, US. Try and get 1% of the off road riders to spend two days a year supporting off road acccess and you'll be blowing in the wind. It's sad but it was the same 40 years ago and we now have the result. However, KEEP UP THE FIGHT!!!

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Old 12-02-2012, 12:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cob View Post
those who thou they be DEAD still vote.
In King County they won't even remove a dead voter from the list when the executor of the estate informs the county elections office. I went through this with when my Grandma passed a couple of years ago.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:44 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by pjturbo View Post
Tod, I agree with everything you say and applaude your efforts. But, as you know the real problem is, as Pogo said, US. Try and get 1% of the off road riders to spend two days a year supporting off road acccess and you'll be blowing in the wind. It's sad but it was the same 40 years ago and we now have the result. However, KEEP UP THE FIGHT!!!

Phil
I concur

. . .and thanks.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:51 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by guns_equal_freedom View Post
Yep, a snide comment and then a smiley face, I would expect nothing less from you.

You can't even answer my original questions and now you won't answer my other question, so at this point I know I am not going to get any kind of a straight answer from you, so, I am done with this.
Serious questions get serious answers.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:46 AM   #72
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1889 views.

How many of the people who have viewed this thread have gone to the website and made a pro-ORV comment?

Let's flood it with pro ORV comments. Come on, it is not that hard! You can do it.



Here is the original post with the link.
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Washington State wants citizen thoughts about recreation in Washington
The Washington State Recreation and Conservation Office is hosting a series of online public meetings to get people’s thoughts about the future of outdoor recreation in Washington.

The online forum will gather the public’s input about the demand for outdoor recreation, what people want to see in their parks and on their trails, what prevents people from recreating outdoors and the quality of their experiences when they do.

To participate in the online public meetings, visit www.scorpwa.wordpress.com.

You can participate at any time of day. The meeting will start with a series of questions about commercialization of parks, and new questions will be added regularly.

http://www.portorchardindependent.co...177291231.html
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:51 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by MasterMarine View Post
1889 views.

How many of the people who have viewed this thread have gone to the website and made a pro-ORV comment?

Let's flood it with pro ORV comments. Come on, it is not that hard! You can do it.



Here is the original post with the link.
Me!
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:13 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by MasterMarine View Post
1889 views.

How many of the people who have viewed this thread have gone to the website and made a pro-ORV comment?

Let's flood it with pro ORV comments. Come on, it is not that hard! You can do it.



Here is the original post with the link.

Me 2
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:31 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by MasterMarine View Post
1889 views.

How many of the people who have viewed this thread have gone to the website and made a pro-ORV comment?

Let's flood it with pro ORV comments. Come on, it is not that hard! You can do it.



Here is the original post with the link.
Me 3. Suggest at least 1,500 individuals do same.
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