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Old 12-03-2012, 08:47 PM   #76
Ned1
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Yep.....
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:35 PM   #77
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Eh? Hmmm...

Wow.

We need to hang onto our riding. We need to be effective good citizens. We need to make what we want for riding fit the plan, the Law, the Regs, scoot past the NEPA/ EIS bull.

Nobody cares that anyone is an angry white guy, or 15,000, who wants to ride his scooter on Public Lands. Angry white guys lost effectiveness when the WWII generation reached their 50s in the 1970s, right before John Wayne died.(I am an angry white guy, but I know in the big picture, nobody cares...).

IMO we need to calm down, learn the system, the regs, the law, and be as smooth as those metrosexual mountain bike advocates that get new trails built all the time! Because...how is the winning going with the aggro "we deserve it all" and 'everyone else is wrong' or dishonest or devious etc approaches? Not well, loss after loss. We are just riding our motorcycles, not curing cancer, not saving the world, quit acting like we are. But we as citizens should have some good riding, well-managed, therefore deserving of society allowing it to continue. Nobody cares that anyone is an angry white guy with an expensive motorcycle to ride on public land- we must make this fit society.

It is fairly common to see moto advocates who become well known become professional critics, hateful accusers of politicians and of the land administrators. How does this help? Nobody cares about an angry white guy...

I have seen the effect of tens of thousands of carbon-copy emails from an interest group sent to an agency...pissed at the extra work, and don't care. Perhaps better to do some homework, understand it, make well though-out logical, respectful, and pertinent comments that have insight to the big picture (other things are as/ more important as riding...but riding fits like this...etc)

When it all lines up- numbers of people, several interest group sectors ( the other group gets this, we get this, etc), the Law, the plan, the EIS, then maybe it can go forward. There is quite a lot of use of motors on USFS that I see as very shaky without enough foundation in Law and regulation. In my experience in WA moto riders have the best opportunity on State lands to improve access/ moto land-use. We should pay attention to that and get our remaining riding well-established. And certainly not abuse it!

ADVNCW screwed with this post 12-03-2012 at 09:40 PM
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:16 AM   #78
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That's the problem with people like us: motorcycle riders, gun enthusiasts, independent thinkers... We're too independent for our own good. The greenies, however, march and vote in lockstep, and because of this they prevail.

I remember, years ago, when the state I lived in proposed a new law that would have banned all aftermarket exhausts on motorcycles. The shop I worked at staged a well-publicized rally on the capital steps, attended by, maybe, 50 people. Even though the shop I worked at was a Harley/Kawasaki dealer, very few of the loud pipe contingent showed up.


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Old 12-04-2012, 06:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
Because...how is the winning going with the aggro "we deserve it all" and 'everyone else is wrong' or dishonest or devious etc approaches?
I have not seen this from any motorized offroad recreation advocate of any significant influence. Care to be specific? Especially if any moto advocate is is using dishonest or devious approaches. That harms all of us and cannot be tolerated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
It is fairly common to see moto advocates who become well known become professional critics, hateful accusers of politicians and of the land administrators. How does this help?
Thinking of anyone in particular?

No hate from me, but at the same time it is wrong not to point out when an elected official is doing something to intentionally harm our sport.


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Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
I have seen the effect of tens of thousands of carbon-copy emails from an interest group sent to an agency...pissed at the extra work, and don't care.
The DNR cared enough to re-open Walker Valley and according to the Commissioner of Public Lands at the time, the thousands of correspondence did have a significant impact on the outcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
Perhaps better to do some homework, understand it, make well though-out logical, respectful, and pertinent comments that have insight to the big picture (other things are as/ more important as riding...but riding fits like this...etc)
Do see anything less from the NMA or WOHVA?



Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
There is quite a lot of use of motors on USFS that I see as very shaky without enough foundation in Law and regulation. In my experience in WA moto riders have the best opportunity on State lands to improve access/ moto land-use. We should pay attention to that and get our remaining riding well-established. And certainly not abuse it!
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
In my experience in WA moto riders have the best opportunity on State lands to improve access/ moto land-use.
Not so sure that is currently the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
We should pay attention to that and get our remaining riding well-established. And certainly not abuse it!

Correct.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:50 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
Wow.

We need to hang onto our riding. We need to be effective good citizens. We need to make what we want for riding fit the plan, the Law, the Regs, scoot past the NEPA/ EIS bull.

Nobody cares that anyone is an angry white guy, or 15,000, who wants to ride his scooter on Public Lands. Angry white guys lost effectiveness when the WWII generation reached their 50s in the 1970s, right before John Wayne died.(I am an angry white guy, but I know in the big picture, nobody cares...).

IMO we need to calm down, learn the system, the regs, the law, and be as smooth as those metrosexual mountain bike advocates that get new trails built all the time! Because...how is the winning going with the aggro "we deserve it all" and 'everyone else is wrong' or dishonest or devious etc approaches? Not well, loss after loss. We are just riding our motorcycles, not curing cancer, not saving the world, quit acting like we are. But we as citizens should have some good riding, well-managed, therefore deserving of society allowing it to continue. Nobody cares that anyone is an angry white guy with an expensive motorcycle to ride on public land- we must make this fit society.

It is fairly common to see moto advocates who become well known become professional critics, hateful accusers of politicians and of the land administrators. How does this help? Nobody cares about an angry white guy...

I have seen the effect of tens of thousands of carbon-copy emails from an interest group sent to an agency...pissed at the extra work, and don't care. Perhaps better to do some homework, understand it, make well though-out logical, respectful, and pertinent comments that have insight to the big picture (other things are as/ more important as riding...but riding fits like this...etc)

When it all lines up- numbers of people, several interest group sectors ( the other group gets this, we get this, etc), the Law, the plan, the EIS, then maybe it can go forward. There is quite a lot of use of motors on USFS that I see as very shaky without enough foundation in Law and regulation. In my experience in WA moto riders have the best opportunity on State lands to improve access/ moto land-use. We should pay attention to that and get our remaining riding well-established. And certainly not abuse it!
Eh, pedal-powered mtn bikes aren't so cheap neither. Not a lot of non-white guys pushing those around on mtn single track either. Just sayin'.

Add noise, visible exhaust, and speed and it don't matter if these were $100 motorbikes ridden by a "diverse" cross-section of the public. Non-moto are selfish and don't want to share with anyone. The mtb'ers are barely accepted as legitimate use of these "delicate" trails.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:45 PM   #81
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Totally agree.

It's funny how the MTB guys have hopped into bed with the WTA devil, though.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:47 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVNCW View Post
IMO we need to calm down, learn the system, the regs, the law, and be as smooth as those metrosexual mountain bike advocates that get new trails built all the time! Because...how is the winning going with the aggro "we deserve it all" and 'everyone else is wrong' or dishonest or devious etc approaches? Not well, loss after loss. We are just riding our motorcycles, not curing cancer, not saving the world, quit acting like we are. But we as citizens should have some good riding, well-managed, therefore deserving of society allowing it to continue. Nobody cares that anyone is an angry white guy with an expensive motorcycle to ride on public land- we must make this fit society.

It is fairly common to see moto advocates who become well known become professional critics, hateful accusers of politicians and of the land administrators. How does this help? Nobody cares about an angry white guy...

I have seen the effect of tens of thousands of carbon-copy emails from an interest group sent to an agency...pissed at the extra work, and don't care. Perhaps better to do some homework, understand it, make well though-out logical, respectful, and pertinent comments that have insight to the big picture (other things are as/ more important as riding...but riding fits like this...etc)
You have some fantastic posts in this thread.

Well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911fan View Post
That's the problem with people like us: motorcycle riders, gun enthusiasts, independent thinkers... We're too independent for our own good. The greenies, however, march and vote in lockstep, and because of this they prevail.
Not so much.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:18 PM   #83
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You have some fantastic posts in this thread.
Yay! Somebody you agree with.

So what's the plan for fixin' there boss? Just keep's a tellin' us how's dumbs we is?
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:34 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911fan View Post
That's the problem with people like us: motorcycle riders, gun enthusiasts, independent thinkers... We're too independent for our own good. The greenies, however, march and vote in lockstep, and because of this they prevail.
I think that's generally right, maybe a bit over simplified, but pretty close to the truth. The eviro crowd is very well organized and passionate. Also doesn't hurt to have the middle/upper class and rich on your side what with their disposable income and not.

The fix? Don't know that there is one, not in the Peoples Republic of Washington anyway.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:27 AM   #85
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Also doesn't hurt to have the middle/upper class and rich on your side what with their disposable income and not.
The corporate support they get allows them to have paid staff.
That makes a big difference in what you can accomplish on a day to day basis.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:40 AM   #86
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New question starts today



Current Question -Help us explain the following trend,

New research shows that for adults (18 and over) in Washington, between 2006 and 2012,

Nature-based recreation activities, such as backpacking, primitive camping, showshoeing, horseback riding, and climbing generally are increasing while

Activities that depend on built facilities, such as soccer, baseball, rollerblading, football, and boat camping generally are decreasing.

What do you think the reasons are?



http://scorpwa.wordpress.com/comments/
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:17 AM   #87
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:47 AM   #88
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Getting high and drunk to walk around the forest requires no special skill set.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:28 AM   #89
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:41 PM   #90
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The corporate support they get allows them to have paid staff.
That makes a big difference in what you can accomplish on a day to day basis.
Was at the WTA office today.

They a have 20 staff members in their downtown Seattle office.

Paid NMA staff + paid WOHVA staff = Total paid ORV advocates is Washington State ZERO.
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