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Old 11-27-2012, 09:08 AM   #151
COXR650L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Is this entire area currently managed by the BLM or multiple agencies?

I would like to know this as it will pertinent in my letters. (if it is)
I know a lage area of it is and possibly some is currently covered by The USFS?

If they have federal agencies overseeing this land, then they already have all the power that they need to restrict it in any means necessary to protect it without going for the blanket National Monument designation.

Thanks!


See the bellow map....


the majority is BLM and the other part is USFS in the Mante La Sals. For those that have ridden in this area there are very few roads and no trails for OHVs. You can go three days without ever seeing another person and I have never seen any oil wells. Sounds like an area we really need more governemnt control over

Also if anyone believes the letter dmac recieved above about this not being related to OHVs, see the Sirra Clubs first reason for the National Monument............


What are they really saying is the justification for this? OHVs or oil and gas

There is talk about what trails will be effect by this and looking at the map I can see Behind the Rocks, Kane Creek, Lockhart Basin, Moab Rim (?) Pritchitt (?) Ruin Park, Wooden Shoe Rd just looking for a second. What trails can you see that could be closed?

Let BLM and USFS do thier job and manage the land.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:10 AM   #152
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Thanks for the encouragement Ben and GREAT responses guys! We are finally back on track and no longer infighting over political issues.

I agree that this is prompted by SUWA (as I stated I think in the first post in the thread) and Sierra Club and others too probably.

Check this out...even the first pic is the same! Oh...and in the fact sheet, they even blame us for climate change in the West!

http://www.suwa.org/issues/greatercanyonlands/
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:15 AM   #153
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dmac1. . . who was that rsponse from?
"This letter is asking the President to recognize the important role that recreation of all types, including motorized, plays in our area."
Maybe I missed something. . . what letter is he talking about? The "proposal letter" from the "coalition (SUWA, et al)??

There aren't any tar sands drilling proposals that have been filed (last I checked a few months back, and was told they know of nothing in the works either). Tar sands are expensive, require lots of space, and require LOTS of water. SUWA and friends would love to have you believe that they are protecting the place from tar sand explorations, et al, but they too know that it isn't hardly a threat. OHV's are their threat, and they don't often hide that too well.
Their goals:
* Shut off OHV access and privelage
* Expand "eco-tourism" (rafting, hiking, canyoneering, guided Jeep tours (you sit in the back and they drive you down the road). Essentially, guide services, hotels, restaurants, glass bridges, paved roads, "visitor centers"
* Create very large swathes ofland where only foot traffic can enter (until they see it's not making them enough $$, then open it to guides service vehicles)
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Pariahtize screwed with this post 11-27-2012 at 09:23 AM
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:21 AM   #154
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SportSawyer, welcome aboard!! You've got that tail pinned precisely on the ass it belongs

Good links too.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:25 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
.... the majority is BLM and the other part is USFS in the Mante La Sals. For those that have ridden in this area there are very few roads and no trails for OHVs.
.
.
.
What trails can you see that could be closed?
There are a lot of motorcycle singletrack trails on the FS lands included in SUWA's boundary. See the Manti-La Sal NF, Monticello Ranger District Motor Vehicle Use Map:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5375669.pdf

I've ridden those trails, some of which connect to singletrack on adjacent BLM lands. Losing those trails would be a significant loss of forest singletrack in SE Utah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
.... Let BLM and USFS do thier job and manage the land.
Hear, hear. The BLM RMPs and Manti-La Sal Forest Plan and Travel Plan provide balanced use and protection.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:30 AM   #156
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[QUOTE=COXR650L;20126983]

There is talk about what trails will be effect by this and looking at the map I can see Behind the Rocks, Kane Creek, Lockhart Basin, Moab Rim (?) Pritchitt (?) Ruin Park, Wooden Shoe Rd just looking for a second. What trails can you see that could be closed?

QUOTE]

Canyon Rims is in the affected area. It is south of Moab and west of 191. Look at SUWA's map and see the red line to west off 191. There are 3 or 4 4x4 roads that go to some awesome overlooks. I rode em on my mtn bike quite some time ago. Names I remember are Canyonlands Overlook. Colorado Overlook, Anticline Overlook. I think there's a fourth but I'd have to get my guidebooks out.

Per SUWA's and the Sierra Club's maps, the southern area of White Wash is included which means that Dead Cow and Cow Freckles are included. I can't tell about the southern part of Enduro Loop.

Here's SUWA's map. It is the clearest one I've seen.
http://www.suwa.org/wp-content/uploa...nlands_Map.pdf
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dmac1 screwed with this post 11-27-2012 at 12:02 PM
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:33 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
See the bellow map....


the majority is BLM and the other part is USFS in the Mante La Sals. For those that have ridden in this area there are very few roads and no trails for OHVs. You can go three days without ever seeing another person and I have never seen any oil wells. Sounds like an area we really need more governemnt control over



There is talk about what trails will be effect by this and looking at the map I can see Behind the Rocks, Kane Creek, Lockhart Basin, Moab Rim (?) Pritchitt (?) Ruin Park, Wooden Shoe Rd just looking for a second. What trails can you see that could be closed?

Let BLM and USFS do thier job and manage the land.
Exactly! Thanks!

They have all the tools that they need now to manage it.
The BLM and USFS need to do their jobs. If they don't have a handle on this, who does??
The Travel Management Plans proposed and in place (which are draconian enough) should address all of their concerns with OHVs. We need to point that out in our letters.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to ask as a taxpayer what this proposal will cost if implemented and how it is to be funded. Then send this to Grover Norquist and the tax nazis. Let them know that the Sierra Club is asking for a non-funded over-reach of the federal government.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:34 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportSawyer View Post
There are a lot of motorcycle singletrack trails on the FS lands included in SUWA's boundary. See the Manti-La Sal NF, Monticello Ranger District Motor Vehicle Use Map:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5375669.pdf

I've ridden those trails, some of which connect to singletrack on adjacent BLM lands. Losing those trails would be a significant loss of forest singletrack in SE Utah.
Point taken, I guess I was reffering to the Lockhart basin, Runin Park, Wooden shoe area, so i misspoke. But now that I think about it there are also ATV trails off Wooden Shoe correct? All the more reason to support that this is a CLOSURE. Thanks for the input Sportswayer!!!
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:57 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Exactly! Thanks!

They have all the tools that they need now to manage it.
The BLM and USFS need to do their jobs. If they don't have a handle on this, who does??
The Travel Management Plans proposed and in place (which are draconian enough) should address all of their concerns with OHVs. We need to point that out in our letters.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to ask as a taxpayer what this proposal will cost if implemented and how it is to be funded. Then send this to Grover Norquist and the tax nazis. Let them know that the Sierra Club is asking for a non-funded over-reach of the federal government.
^^^This^^^ is good stuff Gordy. THIS will help our cause and was already included in all my letters.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:38 AM   #160
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I was gathering some info for a response to this petition and came across this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyonlands Closure Petition
There is another significant aspect to this problem: too frequently, ORV users knowingly violate existing rules that govern ORV use. In a survey conducted by Utah State University, owners of ORVs reported that they prefer to ride off trail, and in fact, do ride off trail. Specifically, 49% of the ATV riders and 38% of the motorcycle riders report that they prefer to ride off-trail, and 39% of the ATV riders and 50% of the motorcycle riders responded that they did, in fact, ride off-trail on their last trip. These findings are disturbing. Illegal off-trail riding is not limited to “a few bad apples,” but to significant portions of the ORV-riding community. The USU survey also reported that Utah ORV riders drive over 93 million miles annually.6 Considering the annual miles driven along with the percentage of ORV users who prefer to ride off trail and admit to riding off trail, there can be little doubt that illegal, off-trail riding can be ignored, or swept under the rug by the agency’s claim that riders stay on the trails when marked appropriately. The survey results illustrate the massive problems associated with managing ORV use on public lands while simultaneously protecting the sensitive resources. While BLM cannot admittedly control the behavior of every ORV user, it can
take proactive actions to limit opportunities for illegal actions and trespassing. Restricting use in particularly sensitive areas deep in the backcountry is one such reasonable measure.
They obviously got the BS generator redlining. I prefer to ride on a marked trail as do 99.9% of us on here.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:46 AM   #161
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Quote:
In a survey conducted by Utah State University
This should be open to public viewing ? I would love to see it and the questions asked and to who !
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:10 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
I was gathering some info for a response to this petition and came across this (from SUWA): ".... In a survey conducted by Utah State University, owners of ORVs reported that they prefer to ride off trail, and in fact, do ride off trail. Specifically, 49% of the ATV riders and 38% of the motorcycle riders report that they prefer to ride off-trail, and 39% of the ATV riders and 50% of the motorcycle riders responded that they did, in fact, ride off-trail on their last trip." ....
SUWA is being dishonest when they use that to support this: "There is another significant aspect to this problem: too frequently, ORV users knowingly violate existing rules that govern ORV use."

If you look carefully at the survey questions, raw data, time-of-year the survey was conducted (for last trip), what the actual management was at the time (2000-2001), how open-ended questions were categorized by the survey takers, etc, etc, etc. it's easy to see that the "off trail" use could have been in places where "off trail" use was NOT a violation of existing rules (dunes, open areas, ...). They can't conclude this use was a violation of law at the time, and they know it.

Get a complete copy of the survey, with all the questions and the answers to open-ended questions, then consider the survey timeline and the management conditions of the various BLM Field Offices and National Forests at that time.

You can download it from:

http://extension.usu.edu/iort/files/...linary_cf5.pdf
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:11 AM   #163
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Shearboy! I'll know about that Debeque trrail ride (if I can make it) by Thr. . . I know, doesn't leave much time for planning. I'd be riding Dec 6th or 7th.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:16 AM   #164
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This should be open to public viewing ? I would love to see it and the questions asked and to who !

Yes it is pure Bull Shit that is a flat our lie by whoever wrote it.


The study they are citing is here....
http://extension.usu.edu/iort/files/...dOHVreport.pdf

The researchers state the figures of "off trail use" dont reflect attitudes of the OHV users due to improperly worded questions, or questions that dont have catagoricial answers. Most of these percentages came from people that were referring to "Open" riding areas such as sand dunes where there are no "trails". See bellow.....


That figure of the study has no statistical importance and even the researchs that did the study say this. Strange how the otherside will hang their hat on it though.

Here is another State of Utah Study on OHV use that many enviro nazi's dont like to cite.........



For anyone interested in disprooving alot of this BS here is a link with tons of studies on the impact of OHVs in Utah that were done or supported by the Utah State University....

http://extension.usu.edu/iort/htm/pr...al_reports/ohv
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COXR650L screwed with this post 11-27-2012 at 11:25 AM
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by RideFreak View Post
I was gathering some info for a response to this petition and came across this:



They obviously got the BS generator redlining. I prefer to ride on a marked trail as do 99.9% of us on here.

No doubt. it's how they posed the question. . . I'd love to see that survey question too!! Likely, the responses were referring to riding in legal sand areas, washes, slickrock, etc.

This is the typical deceit that you will find coming from these people. They love to twist, adjust and sometimes reconfigure the layout to best suit their agenda.

EDIT: You beat me to it, COXR
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