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Old 11-23-2012, 11:30 AM   #46
singletrackslayer
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so,
the reason they have deeper pockects is because the funds that they get for suing the federal gov over and over again right? Why not sue the sierra club for "lost of liberty, freedom, and the ability to persue happiness" as put down by our founding fathers? get all patriotic on their asses . . . juries eat that stuff up. then we'll have the funding to persue suing the gov.

When you are broke, you have only time and no $. I have plenty of time right now. No "$100 new tires" for me. I have to purchace a couple of thousand dollars worth of gear to be able to work this winter and now 90% of the companies Ive purchaced quality products from in the past are against us. So either I cant work this winter or I have to suck up my pride and purchase from these hypicrits cause no one else makes the product that i need. IM SO FUCKING PISSED OFF RIGHT NOW!

I already belong to COHVCO and TPA. They are finacially being bogged down with trying to fight yesterdays fight, time to look 5 - 10 years out and start planning for that.

Sorry, i think Don is doing a great job with the overwhelming task at hand tryin to take down goliath with a BB gun.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:42 PM   #47
Raul Duke
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I think I am heading down to get my final rides in on both Saturday and Sunday.

I'm thinking around 10:30ish tomorrow meeting at the 665 parking lot on Gold Camp Rd if anyone would like to join me.

Sunday around Noonish, same place.

Perhaps we should do a last minute "pass-the-hat" collection for the TPA both days as well.

This F'ing B-L-O-W-S.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:52 PM   #48
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speaking of blows, how about we take out all the bridges and trail work that has been done by moto groups or with OHV funds over the years. ride hell, i feel like doing some destruction. all though, scaring the shit out of some hikers sounds like fun.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:05 PM   #49
Raul Duke
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Originally Posted by singletrackslayer View Post
speaking of blows, how about we take out all the bridges and trail work that has been done by moto groups or with OHV funds over the years. ride hell, i feel like doing some destruction. all though, scaring the shit out of some hikers sounds like fun.
While I do share your sheer anger at the situation, my understanding is this closure is not permanent... at least not yet. We dont need to give the antis any more ammo that they can use against us on either this cluster-f'ck or the upcoming cluster-f'cks that are bound to happen.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:38 PM   #50
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From Jerry Abboud today:

In an effort to allow folks some understanding of what is actually transpired with the Settlement Agreement before this gets too heated, let me present these facts:

1. This is a proposal submitted to the Court; until a court order is issued this settlement proposal is not yet in full force and effect.
2. Regarding the contents, the trail closure is temporary until a Watershed Assessment is completed during the winter of 2012-2013.
3. The issue of impacts of other trail users will be evaluated if the proposal moves forward. Also our attorney may ask that that be specified in the agreement, he may also request other changes. Until he has filed a motion with the court on Monday there is no reason for conjecture.

So folks, let's hang together and as mentioned by folks like Jeff Slavens, prepare to fund the cause. We are far from a loss, and in the thick of things. The real complaint at this point is the CBD and FS and the failure to bring us (intervenors) into the settlement agreement discussions. That is an issue unto itself.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #51
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I'll be there Sunday. Looking forward to riding with whoever can make it.
I wonder how long it will take the these crazies to try and keep us off of 717 because of the elk...or squirrels even
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:10 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul Duke View Post
I think I am heading down to get my final rides in on both Saturday and Sunday.

I'm thinking around 10:30ish tomorrow meeting at the 665 parking lot on Gold Camp Rd if anyone would like to join me.

Sunday around Noonish, same place.

Perhaps we should do a last minute "pass-the-hat" collection for the TPA both days as well.

This F'ing B-L-O-W-S.
I was thinking the same thing the other day as far as fund raising. I'm going to try and make it for Sunday if me on my big bike is allowed to join you!!!

I trust Raul Duke to collect money or if people want they can funnel money to the TPA through me & the RMAR. Whatever method you would like to do but point being donate. Either way anyone going out with groups make a point to ask for donations. See people in the parking lot make them aware of the matter. The fact is most people will have NO CLUE till they go to park and read a sign that says CLOSED....then they will say "WTF when did this happen". Most riders I have meet in the field on various types of motorcycles know nothing of ADVRider or might have heard of it if you are lucky but they are not members. If they are not members of such a large group I have found even less likely they know about TPA, COHVCO, CMTRA and many other organizations are...educate them so we get more members.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:39 PM   #53
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While this trail is a big loss, it's the precedent around this that bothers me the most.

If you read the actual filings, the BCD's primary argument was that the USFS violated protocol with "opening" these trails by listing them on the MVUM without the proper impact analysis required for opening new OHV trails. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that these trails were always open to moto, it was the 2005 Travel Management Rule (further clarified in 2009) that required the USFS districts to inventory and specifically designate routes open to OHV. Implementation of this rule did not "open" new routes, but instead closed all the routes that were not specifically designated by being listed on the MVUMs. If the USFS is accepting the argument that "not closing" a trail is the same as "opening", then every route that was grandfathered into the MVUM's (98% of current moto trails) could be challenged under the same premise. To me it's a blatant and obvious misinterpretation of the process, but so far it appears the USFS isn't going to take their whole public land stewardship responsibility too seriously and will cave to the first group with a few slimy lawyers and a pretend scientific study.

I assume that the case being settled prior to court means it does not create a precedent in a legal sense, but if the USFS capitulates to it once, then.....?
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:49 PM   #54
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I agree with Thump. Attached is a link to the Bear Creek assesement site at the Pike National Forest web site. This issue is open for comment until 12/1. I mistakenly thought a decision would be forth coming after an assesment was made. Please write to the site and express your concerns.





http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/psicc/...telprdb5397298
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:53 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COBob View Post
I agree with Thump. Attached is a link to the Bear Creek assesement site at the Pike National Forest web site. This issue is open for comment until 12/1. I mistakenly thought a decision would be forth coming after an assesment was made. Please write to the site and express your concerns.





http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/psicc/...telprdb5397298

A nice friendly email sent.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:09 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo View Post
Has COHVCO been advised of this?
Yes. COHVCO is working with TPA on it. Don Riggle runs TPA and he lives at the base of the Jack's trail system and is very passionate about keeping it open. The CMTRA is working on a possible re-route of Jacks just below Crankcase Alley which will most likely be required in order move the trail farther away from the creek. But as many of you have pointed out, this is more about the Center for Wildlife Diversity wanting to ban OHV's than it is about saving the fish.

Primarily this fight is going to need money to fight the lawsuit. You can also get involved more directly by joining the CMTRA. Unfortunately the CMTRA has a very poor online presence, but they do have a Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/CMTRA-...714904?fref=pb

They meet once a month, except December. If anyone is going to be at the Jan meeting and wants to meet some of the people more directly involved in the fight, let me know and I will make introductions.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:35 AM   #57
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A quote from Don Riggle, head of TPA, regarding the closure of Captain Jacks:

"The other is the cost to fight this….$6K in donation so far, and legal bills are over $8k, and will go over $25K if we have to fight this for a long battle. For the record the TPA is funding this entire issue. We have over 1000 dirt riders in COS…you would think we could generate more funding to save the area."

http://www.coloradotpa.org/
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:02 AM   #58
modette
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I been researching GasGas and came across this on their forum on best areas to ride. Sounds like the USA down the road.

Quote:
In the UK, nowhere.

10 yrs ago the government shut 98% of our trails, and what's left is not very good and is being shut one trail at a time.

But now I ride illegally, in bits of wood and some military land.

STEALTH is the name of the game now, and night riding.

One of the main reasons I don't update my bike is if I get caught there is a good chance they confiscate your bike..
If you want a laugh read this guys take on hikers and what not...LOL
http://greenlanecrew.proboards.com/i...ad=1343&page=1
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:32 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modette View Post
If you want a laugh read this guys take on hikers and what not...LOL
http://greenlanecrew.proboards.com/i...ad=1343&page=1


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Old 11-24-2012, 02:32 PM   #60
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part of the solution or contributing to the problem?

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Originally Posted by modette View Post
I'm up for a ride Sunday or next week (got to get the dates) but I should be able too (maybe Saturday). I say we gather a lot of people and all ride up it...show of force.

I'll lead the bigger bike group on my XR650R...

Come on out people Lets do this...
Show of force, seriously??

The Captain Jacks trail closure debate has been going on for months and months on end, it's a damn shame the handful of folks (some are also here on ADV Rider) who actually stepped up to the plate and put in endless hours and effort to try and prevent it from happening, were left hanging in the wind by those who make the most noise now here in the forum about having their rights and freedom protected.

With a bit more coherence and working together toward a common goal instead of of posturing and making a bunch of noise here after the fact, it could have made a real difference already in how this decision went. And it will for trails in the future too.

But that's OK, just go get together the more the better (preferably with big bikes) and ride the closed trail instead like a big herd of buffalos running down a deer trail, that'll showem'. That's the way to get it done for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by modette View Post
...... The fact is most people will have NO CLUE till they go to park and read a sign that says CLOSED....then they will say "WTF when did this happen". Most riders I have meet in the field on various types of motorcycles know nothing of ADVRider or might have heard of it if you are lucky but they are not members. If they are not members of such a large group I have found even less likely they know about TPA, COHVCO, CMTRA and many other organizations are...educate them so we get more members.
True. And no offense, but, from your reaction, pretty much exactly like you, right? It took someone posting this thread for you to jump in and realize Captain Jacks is being closed and you've been a member here since January of '07? Certainly quite active in recent years and even publicly organizing group rides on Captain Jacks (and others in the area), but you had no prior knowledge of the impending closure?
So yes, you're spot on, there is serious need for a lot of education, but it seems we need to start the education right here before we can expect to reach out elsewhere.

How can anyone expect support from non-forum members/riders when active members and riders don't know or care until major battles are lost?

Yeah, I know this was harsh and is going to piss some off, I speak only for myself and out of frustration reading some of the posts here, so flame away, be pissed at me, but please don't throw a monkey wrench in the efforts of those who have been putting their heart and soul into keeping this trail open (including those of you who contribute and are involved on a quieter level as well!!), they have not given up; and maybe, just maybe it will get someone thinking about their own attitude or approach and hopefully there'll be at least a couple of people who'll start paying closer attention and actually find ways to contribute in a productive way instead of just making noise on a forum or making things worse with knee jerk reactions.


If you really want to make a difference, read Pablo's post again and contact the CMRTA to find out best ways to help:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo83 View Post
Yes. COHVCO is working with TPA on it. Don Riggle runs TPA and he lives at the base of the Jack's trail system and is very passionate about keeping it open. The CMTRA is working on a possible re-route of Jacks just below Crankcase Alley which will most likely be required in order move the trail farther away from the creek. But as many of you have pointed out, this is more about the Center for Wildlife Diversity wanting to ban OHV's than it is about saving the fish.

Primarily this fight is going to need money to fight the lawsuit. You can also get involved more directly by joining the CMTRA. Unfortunately the CMTRA has a very poor online presence, but they do have a Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/CMTRA-...714904?fref=pb

They meet once a month, except December. If anyone is going to be at the Jan meeting and wants to meet some of the people more directly involved in the fight, let me know and I will make introductions.
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