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Old 11-25-2012, 05:04 PM   #91
grub
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Guys, we get what we deserve, plain and simple. 5 threads on the first page in the Rockies are about access issues, Nazi cops, or new wilderness areas, when are we as a group going to wake up and realize that we are only popular amongst ourselves, and even that is beginning to show the symptoms of segregation. Trail riders, trials riders, adventure riders, and road riders all seem to have their own forums, most seemingly more concerned with obtaining the latest $500 rotating titanium lovely or reciprocating whiz bang than with riding. I have seen posts in this discussion calling for a show of force, bridge and sign removal and poaching, don’t you guys realize that this is exactly the kind of shit that makes us an easy target in the first place?

I would recommend that everybody sit back and consider the motivation of the officials that are responsible for this closure. Is it fairness, solid evidence or actual verifiable environmental concerns, as you know the short answer to those questions is no. Google the Maximin Theory. They are looking at everything that will cause them heartburn and constipation in the future in regards to this lawsuit and are choosing the least of the evils. They know that banning us will cause the least amount of organized pushback and make the best impression on the other groups involved. Why, because they know that the vast majority of us will say “wow, this sucks. I’m a COHVCO or TPA member; I did all I could do”. The time has come that $25 a year to a trail advocacy organization won’t cut it ladies, one or two crappy little days of trail maintenance won’t either. It’s going to take a focused and concentrated effort on our part to change the perception of those that see us as outlaws; one bad apple spoils the whole damned bunch. They also know that we will spend our time organizing a show of force, or tearing down signs and poaching trails, just adding fuel to their fire and justifying their decision.

How do we accomplish this? We volunteer, we police our own, we quit turning public multi-use trails into our private little race tracks, we clear trees instead of roosting the shit out of things riding around them, and prove to the policy makers that we are responsible stewards of the resources we utilize and we make the trails a better place for everybody, not just ourselves. If you don’t want to find yourselves at hobby lobby next year buying yarn and knitting needles the time has come to give a little to get a little and quit relying on groups like TPA, COHVCO and RMAR to do the things we don’t like about our hobby. I would think that an organized ADV letter writing and phone call campaign would net several hundred letters and phone calls on the desk of some government functionary. That’s going to have a much larger impact than that afternoon in June that you spent feeling good about yourself because you helped some guy roll a tree out of the trail.

Rant over, flame away.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:31 PM   #92
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Got back at 4:30 just top let those that came out today know. It was a BLAST...parking lot was full.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:47 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grub View Post
Guys, we get what we deserve, plain and simple. 5 threads on the first page in the Rockies are about access issues, Nazi cops, or new wilderness areas, when are we as a group going to wake up and realize that we are only popular amongst ourselves, and even that is beginning to show the symptoms of segregation. Trail riders, trials riders, adventure riders, and road riders all seem to have their own forums, most seemingly more concerned with obtaining the latest $500 rotating titanium lovely or reciprocating whiz bang than with riding. I have seen posts in this discussion calling for a show of force, bridge and sign removal and poaching, don’t you guys realize that this is exactly the kind of shit that makes us an easy target in the first place?

I would recommend that everybody sit back and consider the motivation of the officials that are responsible for this closure. Is it fairness, solid evidence or actual verifiable environmental concerns, as you know the short answer to those questions is no. Google the Maximin Theory. They are looking at everything that will cause them heartburn and constipation in the future in regards to this lawsuit and are choosing the least of the evils. They know that banning us will cause the least amount of organized pushback and make the best impression on the other groups involved. Why, because they know that the vast majority of us will say “wow, this sucks. I’m a COHVCO or TPA member; I did all I could do”. The time has come that $25 a year to a trail advocacy organization won’t cut it ladies, one or two crappy little days of trail maintenance won’t either. It’s going to take a focused and concentrated effort on our part to change the perception of those that see us as outlaws; one bad apple spoils the whole damned bunch. They also know that we will spend our time organizing a show of force, or tearing down signs and poaching trails, just adding fuel to their fire and justifying their decision.

How do we accomplish this? We volunteer, we police our own, we quit turning public multi-use trails into our private little race tracks, we clear trees instead of roosting the shit out of things riding around them, and prove to the policy makers that we are responsible stewards of the resources we utilize and we make the trails a better place for everybody, not just ourselves. If you don’t want to find yourselves at hobby lobby next year buying yarn and knitting needles the time has come to give a little to get a little and quit relying on groups like TPA, COHVCO and RMAR to do the things we don’t like about our hobby. I would think that an organized ADV letter writing and phone call campaign would net several hundred letters and phone calls on the desk of some government functionary. That’s going to have a much larger impact than that afternoon in June that you spent feeling good about yourself because you helped some guy roll a tree out of the trail.

Rant over, flame away.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:53 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modette View Post
Got back at 4:30 just top let those that came out today know. It was a BLAST...parking lot was full.
Hope everyone enjoyed it and that you're now energized and ready to try to save our access. I spent my entire day on access issues mostly for the Utah Natl Monument issue. I didn't do anything I'd planned (I've got 3 bikes that need some work and they were on the list) other than halfway catch the first half of the Broncos game. I spent the majority of my time drafting a letter similar to what grub is talking about for use in the natl monument issue. No brag....just fact. I can't do much more than what I'm doing. I do agree that we all (moto that is) need to be unfied in order to hopefully make an impact. Remember, we are a relatively small user group fighting against, essentially, the rest of the nation who largely don't like us due, in part, to the actions of a few bad apples.

Like many, I have to work most days and can't keep up on all the various issues and thus I try to focus on those that seem the most important and contribute what I can to those who I hope will represent us. I'm sure thats what many do. Unfortunately, there seem to be a number of big issues right now and we each must try to find some time to try to make a difference.

Keep up the fight and don't give up!
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:32 PM   #95
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Grub has put one in our wheel house people ......interesting to see how we respond.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:02 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
Grub has put one in our wheel house people ......interesting to see how we respond.
You know that we were the best stewards of the the Jemez trails and look how far that got us.
We co-operated and kissed ass at every juncture.
We are now raising money to hire lawyers.
I do agree on the active letter writing campaign though.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:25 AM   #97
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As of Yesterday no signage:


Still the usual signs:


Looks like they even put a new Motorcycle sign up...I don't ride the lower portion often so not sure when that took place:


i was earlier, but once the other 7 riders showed up a stream of trucks rolled in with dirt bikes. It was a busy day on the Captain. I approached two riders as I was waiting...and as I keep preaching proved me right. One had heard a rumor the trail was closing the other guy said WTF. I told them about the TPA, the TROUT...so in reality most people do not go online thus how would they know this area is under attack. It's what I keep saying when someone claimed its our fault for not being pro-active when reality is most riders have NO CLUE...now make it law the USFS has to post a sign saying a trail is under attack and that to voice an opinion contact so and so by various means. I knew about it because of Don Riggle months ago and longer.


These are new and places in a bunch of areas:


Is this not why we ride, to help others!!! Ladies shock had fallen down after the lower bolt came off. She said her husband just installed them. Turned out the hitch pin worked. She was very grateful and said she would donate something to the TPA (her family are ATV riders she said).
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:46 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
You know that we were the best stewards of the the Jemez trails and look how far that got us.
We co-operated and kissed ass at every juncture.
We are now raising money to hire lawyers.
I do agree on the active letter writing campaign though.
This says it all.

I've seen trail access in other venues go through the same issues. Kiss-ass, build/maintain trails, stand by and watch as people with more power get you excluded from the area. Letter writing campaigns and lawsuits are what get things done or stop things from happening.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:22 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
This says it all.

I've seen trail access in other venues go through the same issues. Kiss-ass, build/maintain trails, stand by and watch as people with more power get you excluded from the area. Letter writing campaigns and lawsuits are what get things done or stop things from happening.
The perfect example already exists. All other user groups need to take cues from the horsey set. One pack of horses on soft soil does more trail damage and erosion then all other user groups combined. They are dangerous to other trail users under all but the best rider. They drop tons of parasites, bacteria and non-native plant seeds all over the trails. They demand special parking facilities and road grading. They are generally unapologetic, self-righteous asshats to all other user groups.... Now how often do you see them targeted with suits? Why? Because the horse lobby will sue the ever living shit out of anyone that screws with them and call in favors from all kinds of high places. One phone call from a senator to a senior federal agency official counts more than all the letters we'll ever write.

I'm not speaking as an "anti-horse" guy, my daughter has a pony sitting out back, but trail access has become a pure political game and they seem to be the only ones that have figured that out. We need to start playing strategic. A proactive 20K donation to a senate campaign or lobbiest gets more than 20k in legal fees... and certainly gets a hell of a lot further than working at the local ranger level. While they're all worthwhile efforts, the rangers we build a bridge with are not the ones making the call in these types of situations. I'd rather see the our OHV dollars go to playing the proper politics and get the local volunteers to donate the bridges and trail work.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:42 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grub View Post
Guys, we get what we deserve, plain and simple. 5 threads on the first page in the Rockies are about access issues, Nazi cops, or new wilderness areas, when are we as a group going to wake up and realize that we are only popular amongst ourselves, and even that is beginning to show the symptoms of segregation. Trail riders, trials riders, adventure riders, and road riders all seem to have their own forums, most seemingly more concerned with obtaining the latest $500 rotating titanium lovely or reciprocating whiz bang than with riding. I have seen posts in this discussion calling for a show of force, bridge and sign removal and poaching, don’t you guys realize that this is exactly the kind of shit that makes us an easy target in the first place?

I would recommend that everybody sit back and consider the motivation of the officials that are responsible for this closure. Is it fairness, solid evidence or actual verifiable environmental concerns, as you know the short answer to those questions is no. Google the Maximin Theory. They are looking at everything that will cause them heartburn and constipation in the future in regards to this lawsuit and are choosing the least of the evils. They know that banning us will cause the least amount of organized pushback and make the best impression on the other groups involved. Why, because they know that the vast majority of us will say “wow, this sucks. I’m a COHVCO or TPA member; I did all I could do”. The time has come that $25 a year to a trail advocacy organization won’t cut it ladies, one or two crappy little days of trail maintenance won’t either. It’s going to take a focused and concentrated effort on our part to change the perception of those that see us as outlaws; one bad apple spoils the whole damned bunch. They also know that we will spend our time organizing a show of force, or tearing down signs and poaching trails, just adding fuel to their fire and justifying their decision.

How do we accomplish this? We volunteer, we police our own, we quit turning public multi-use trails into our private little race tracks, we clear trees instead of roosting the shit out of things riding around them, and prove to the policy makers that we are responsible stewards of the resources we utilize and we make the trails a better place for everybody, not just ourselves. If you don’t want to find yourselves at hobby lobby next year buying yarn and knitting needles the time has come to give a little to get a little and quit relying on groups like TPA, COHVCO and RMAR to do the things we don’t like about our hobby. I would think that an organized ADV letter writing and phone call campaign would net several hundred letters and phone calls on the desk of some government functionary. That’s going to have a much larger impact than that afternoon in June that you spent feeling good about yourself because you helped some guy roll a tree out of the trail.

Rant over, flame away.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:45 AM   #101
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One of Saturday's groups. A lot of different emotions in this group.

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Old 11-26-2012, 01:04 PM   #102
grub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
You know that we were the best stewards of the the Jemez trails and look how far that got us.
We co-operated and kissed ass at every juncture.
We are now raising money to hire lawyers.
I do agree on the active letter writing campaign though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
This says it all.

I've seen trail access in other venues go through the same issues. Kiss-ass, build/maintain trails, stand by and watch as people with more power get you excluded from the area. Letter writing campaigns and lawsuits are what get things done or stop things from happening.

More mental dribblings from Grub:

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. What I am suggesting stands in direct dichotomy to “kissing ass”. First and foremost, I don’t have that ass kissing arrow in my quiver, I never have and at this point in my life I probably never will.

Two of the definitions of noise in Webster’s dictionary are an unwanted signal or a disturbance, and something that attracts attention. We may be louder on the trail than the greenies but they make much more noise. And it’s this noise that we have to learn to make. I’m not only talking about noise they can hear, I am talking about noise that impacts their schedules and those of their aides, noise that they can feel by way of letters and comment from seemingly unrelated entities, enough noise to cause involuntary bowel movements (like Enduro-Ince’s amp). Everybody write a letter to the forest supervisor, print it 10 times and put the stamped addressed envelopes in your glove boxes, mail one whenever you think about it. Have his phone number in your speed dial; call him every time you are stuck in traffic. And coordinate efforts, send them all to the same person, follow up with emails (for the paper trail), copy congressmen. Make phone calls to the guy that owns whatever store you top off your tank and buy that burrito and pop on the way to/from the trailhead, tell him that money is going somewhere else. Call the City Councilors, Chambers of Commerce, and economic development entities of every town that people go to on their way to those trails. Folks, collectively we mean a lot of money to these towns and businesses and they don’t want that going away, especially in this economy. One municipal government on our side gives us much of the credibility we need to be taken seriously.

Demand justification for the exclusion of other user groups and trail choices involved in the closure. Document the man-hours expended on trail maintenance and request verification from other groups.

I also fear that at some point, our utter reliance on people like Mr. Riggle to fight our battles for us will adversely impact their effectiveness. When decision makers hear from the same people over and over and over again, they begin to be ignored. Their objections can be logical, well researched and articulate, but after 100 times they will begin to be viewed as zealots. Decision makers need to hear from the membership of organizations like TPA and COHVCO; they need to know that they are the voice of many people. We need to continue to donate money to their organizations so that they can park an attorney on the desk of the right person. They need to see different faces at public meetings, hear the same position from 200 people one time, not the same position from 1 person 200 times.

I have never ridden the trails in question, I probably never will, but as a group we need to make it known that these arbitrary closures will not stand. We need to take this opportunity to make ourselves a united, well read and articulate pain in their ass, we need to become the loudest of the squeaky wheels, and we need to coordinate with other OHV user groups. This is the closure where we need to stand united, this affects hundreds of riders and a successful lobbying effort here will be remembered because we not only have the numbers to bring that noise, we can make it loud.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:24 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grub View Post
More mental dribblings from Grub:

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. What I am suggesting stands in direct dichotomy to “kissing ass”. First and foremost, I don’t have that ass kissing arrow in my quiver, I never have and at this point in my life I probably never will.

Two of the definitions of noise in Webster’s dictionary are an unwanted signal or a disturbance, and something that attracts attention. We may be louder on the trail than the greenies but they make much more noise. And it’s this noise that we have to learn to make. I’m not only talking about noise they can hear, I am talking about noise that impacts their schedules and those of their aides, noise that they can feel by way of letters and comment from seemingly unrelated entities, enough noise to cause involuntary bowel movements (like Enduro-Ince’s amp). Everybody write a letter to the forest supervisor, print it 10 times and put the stamped addressed envelopes in your glove boxes, mail one whenever you think about it. Have his phone number in your speed dial; call him every time you are stuck in traffic. And coordinate efforts, send them all to the same person, follow up with emails (for the paper trail), copy congressmen. Make phone calls to the guy that owns whatever store you top off your tank and buy that burrito and pop on the way to/from the trailhead, tell him that money is going somewhere else. Call the City Councilors, Chambers of Commerce, and economic development entities of every town that people go to on their way to those trails. Folks, collectively we mean a lot of money to these towns and businesses and they don’t want that going away, especially in this economy. One municipal government on our side gives us much of the credibility we need to be taken seriously.

Demand justification for the exclusion of other user groups and trail choices involved in the closure. Document the man-hours expended on trail maintenance and request verification from other groups.

I also fear that at some point, our utter reliance on people like Mr. Riggle to fight our battles for us will adversely impact their effectiveness. When decision makers hear from the same people over and over and over again, they begin to be ignored. Their objections can be logical, well researched and articulate, but after 100 times they will begin to be viewed as zealots. Decision makers need to hear from the membership of organizations like TPA and COHVCO; they need to know that they are the voice of many people. We need to continue to donate money to their organizations so that they can park an attorney on the desk of the right person. They need to see different faces at public meetings, hear the same position from 200 people one time, not the same position from 1 person 200 times.

I have never ridden the trails in question, I probably never will, but as a group we need to make it known that these arbitrary closures will not stand. We need to take this opportunity to make ourselves a united, well read and articulate pain in their ass, we need to become the loudest of the squeaky wheels, and we need to coordinate with other OHV user groups. This is the closure where we need to stand united, this affects hundreds of riders and a successful lobbying effort here will be remembered because we not only have the numbers to bring that noise, we can make it loud.
Now that ^ was well said. I think you hit on some very key points.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:30 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grub View Post
..... but as a group we need to make it known that these arbitrary closures will not stand. We need to take this opportunity to make ourselves a united, well read and articulate pain in their ass, we need to become the loudest of the squeaky wheels, and we need to coordinate with other OHV user groups. This is the closure where we need to stand united, this affects hundreds of riders and a successful lobbying effort here will be remembered because we not only have the numbers to bring that noise, we can make it loud.
Well....that sounds good but how do we go about doing it? IF we could do this on every issue we faced, we'd likely have some success, but we are very splintered. It seems like our advocacy groups need to coodinate something like this...or at least that would be a starting place (i.e. it is a group gathering and most are there for the same reason - access.)
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:32 AM   #105
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New update from CMTRA this morning:


UPDATE OF THE BEAR CREEK LAWSUIT AND TEMPORARY CLOSURE
There is more to the story than was unfortunately reported inaccurately by the Colorado Springs Gazette in its story posted online at 8:54 p.m. on November 21. (see http://www.gazette.com/articles/ban-147585-group-bear.html). The Gazette story jumped the gun and misstated some key facts.

First, the story fails to explain the “settlement” is PROPOSED and has not been approved by the Court. In fact, by order issued at 9:36 a.m. on Monday, November 26, the Court DENIED the settlement as presented.. The reference in the article to the Forest Service having “10 days to ban the vehicles” fails to note that the 10 days runs from Court approval of the settlement. Obviously that has not yet occurred and will not occur until the USFS and Plaintiff Center for Biological Diversity address the Court’s concerns.

Second, the CMTRA, TPA and COHVCO are interveners in this lawsuit. This means several things. We have formal party status in the case, and can provide input to the Court on the settlement. The settlement comes as no surprise and we have been monitoring the negotiations between the USFS and CBD through our counsel, who has decades of experience in dozens of public lands recreation lawsuits and similar situations.

Third, the story conspicuously omits mention of the fact that in the proposed settlement the Forest Service admits none of CBD’s allegations or claims, and agrees only to “temporary closures” of specified trails on Forest Service land near Bear Creek. The settlement refers to completion of a Forest Service “watershed assessment” which was planned before CBD filed its suit and “consultation” with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at the outcome of that assessment. A possible outcome(s) following conclusion of these agency activities may include the resumption of motorcycle use on one or more of the trails mentioned in the settlement.

Fourth, the practical significance of the “ban” cannot be evaluated until the agency assessment is completed. The primary trail of interest, Trail 667, lies deep in a canyon on primarily north-aspect slopes and is effectively closed from at least December through March most years by weather. In other words, no one meaningfully rides 667 during the winter regardless of the settlement. A nonmotorized route, Trail 666, is traveled daily by many users, yet reflects unimproved crossings and sedimentation issues at least as great as those of the motorized route 667 conveniently ignored by CBD. It is at least conceivable that the agency activities required by the settlement might be completed prior to resumption of the 2013 “season” for motorcycle use of Trail 667. We believe the timing and specific language of the settlement agreement reflect awareness of these factors and the relative procedural ease with which the CBD case can be side-stepped by the agencies.

CMTRA, TPA and COHVCO have been participating in a “roundtable” process at Bear Creek alongside many other groups including nonmotorized recreationists, Trout Unlimited, and the City of Colorado Springs. This roundtable predates the CBD suit and has resulted in numerous improvements to the motorized and nonmotorized trails along Bear Creek and will continue to seek long-term management solutions. We appreciate your awareness of the complete story in forming an opinion about the Bear Creek trails and any support you can provide for the ongoing efforts of the CMTRA, TPA and COHVCO.
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