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Old 11-24-2012, 10:42 AM   #16
photomd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
You do know that the Enduralast is a retrofit Ducati system and everything you typed above about it only having diodes is absolutely wrong?

The regulator-rectifier is just that: a regulator AND a rectifier. The system you described is the stock system and you don't have a combination unit. You have a diode board and a rectifier, in two different places.

Back to the original post: you don't need to have more than 12V at idle. With the lights on and high 12s, it sounds healthy. Does the voltage climb to 13.8-14.4V when you raise the revs to around 3K? If so, the system is fine.

There are ways to troubleshoot that system. Does anybody know how the idiot light works with the Enduralast conversion?
I don't think it's absolutely wrong. I made some assumptions:
1. His charge light is on. That means the voltage between the battery and charging system is enough to light the bulb.
2. If the regulator is gone, his voltage would climb or not be there at all and IMHO, you need to rule out a problem with the diodes, which can be easily done, before paying $130 for a new part to "see" if it fixes the problem. If you have a better way to test a voltage regulator, then I'd love to learn about it.
3. The person that asked for the picture wanted to see how it works which is why I posted it. The diodes do nothing more than eliminate the negative side of the AC current and allow the positive current to flow creating a DC current.

After looking at the wiring diagram from Euromotoelectrics, I was also wrong about something else. The ground is through the case and the black wire connects to a hot wire that comes on with the ignition. So you need to check the diodes between the red wires and the yellow wires as well as between the yellow wires and the ground. Again, this only tests the diodes, NOT the entire system.

As stated before, you need to start the bike and see where the voltage goes. If it climbs, especially too high, you need to trouble shoot that problem. If it doesn't climb, you need to trouble shoot that problem (check connections, check the AC voltage, check R/R as described).
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:58 AM   #17
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I have been thru this too

Make sure you have AC coming from the Yellow wires that connect the to the alternator... Easy to do... The issue i had was the original ground wire supplied with the install kit (the one that connects to the rectifier) was bad, it lasted about 6 months then just gave up. I striped the system out and tested everything, all just to find the bad ground. After replacing the ground all was good.

Let me know how you go.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
The system you described is the stock system and you don't have a combination unit. You have a diode board and a rectifier, in two different places.
If you are going to try and correct someone's mistakes you should do it correctly.

Hence, you are incorrect above. In the stock system, the diode board is the rectifier, and the regulator is a separate unit.

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Old 11-25-2012, 05:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kixtand View Post
If you are going to try and correct someone's mistakes you should do it correctly.

Hence, you are incorrect above. In the stock system, the diode board is the rectifier, and the regulator is a separate unit.
You are correct. I blasted that out, just before leaving for work. That's what I meant--diode board, regulator.

Every one of these diagnosis threads turns into a cluster-fuck of misinformation. To the best of my knowledge, you also can't do a diode test through the regulator stage of an integrated unit like that since there are other solid-state devices in the circuit. I've not torn into one but, I've read that the regulator is either an SCR/thyristor or transistor doing pulse width modulation to regulate current.

Bottom line: check the yellow wires with a voltmeter set to the AC range. They should be at least 16-19V while running at 3K RPM. If not, the stator is toast.

If it is putting out proper voltage, check all the connections as previously mentioned, especially ground an the hot feed back to the battery. If those are good, the regulator rectifier is probably toast. It's not uncommon for them to fail.

I was never a fan of the low-tech Enduralast unit and that's why my GS has the Motorrad Elektrik alternator.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:25 PM   #20
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Here's the information I gathered last night. Battery voltage at rest was 12.9, at idle it was 11.97. The black wire off the r/r shows battery voltage.

0.6mv on ac setting at battery. No ac voltage on the yellow wires at the stator. That points me to a bum stator I believe.

I didn't disconnect the r/r and do a diode test. I'm not sure if its required at this point.

I plan to call Jon tomorrow with this information and get his input as well.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:09 PM   #21
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Just to clarify: disconnect the yellow wires from the rest of the harness and measure the AC voltage at that point (engine running--obviously). You have NOTHING? There's your problem--stator is cooked.

Or you can do an Ohm test through the same two wires (engine off). Totally open circuit is bad (my guess). Also: you can check either of those wires to ground. That reading should be totally open (no conductivity). If it shows any connection at all, that also points to a problem (short).

It's almost always the stator, though on my 1986 Gold Wing, it would cook the regulator-rectifier first, then that would damage the stator shortly thereafter. Did a bunch of those in 190K miles. Around 120K I moved the reg-rect out from under the bodywork and out into the airstream. It never burned another regulator, though stators continued to expire every 30K.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonketHotey
Every one of these diagnosis threads turns into a cluster-fuck of misinformation. To the best of my knowledge, you also can't do a diode test through the regulator stage of an integrated unit like that since there are other solid-state devices in the circuit. I've not torn into one but, I've read that the regulator is either an SCR/thyristor or transistor doing pulse width modulation to regulate current.
Amen. I'm glad that we (eventually) got a schematic of that system so we can figure out what is going on. I think you're right, the Regulator black box does PWM on the SCRs on the ground leg of the two stator phases to regulate the voltage. At full current, those poor SCRs are having a time. And as an encapsulated unit in the "heatsink case" it may not be repairable.

I'll agree on the stator. Check the resistance/continuity, and see what the unregulated voltage is like with the stator out of the electrical system. And check with Jon before shelling out bucks.

Dang, that was a long "me too" post...

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Old 11-25-2012, 07:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harris View Post
]
I'll agree on the stator. Check the resistance/continuity, and see what the unregulated voltage is like with the stator out of the electrical system.
Also, be sure to check continuity of each winding to the core. There shouldn't be any. I've seen a few (not enduralasts, but similar) fail by shorting to the core. This can be tough to spot sometimes as its sometimes intermittent depending on heat.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:03 AM   #24
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i was measuring at the yellow wires at the stator with the stator still connected to the bike and the bike was running.
are you talking about the yellow stator wires or the yellow r/r wires?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
Just to clarify: disconnect the yellow wires from the rest of the harness and measure the AC voltage at that point (engine running--obviously). You have NOTHING? There's your problem--stator is cooked.

Or you can do an Ohm test through the same two wires (engine off). Totally open circuit is bad (my guess). Also: you can check either of those wires to ground. That reading should be totally open (no conductivity). If it shows any connection at all, that also points to a problem (short).

It's almost always the stator, though on my 1986 Gold Wing, it would cook the regulator-rectifier first, then that would damage the stator shortly thereafter. Did a bunch of those in 190K miles. Around 120K I moved the reg-rect out from under the bodywork and out into the airstream. It never burned another regulator, though stators continued to expire every 30K.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:28 AM   #25
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If it measured zero while connected, that's still pretty conclusive but, I guess if the regulator-rectifier was dead shorted, that test might not decide which it is. In that case, the wires would be getting VERY hot and you'd notice but...

The logic is: the stator is an AC generator. If you disconnect it from everything else, it should still be an AC generator. If you measure the AC voltage on the wires going to the stator, it should tell you if that component is doing what it's supposed to. Most bikes produce 16-19V while the circuit is wide open and unregulated like that (maybe even higher).

Measuring it while connected tests the overall circuit, under load. It will tell you if ALL the windings in the stator are-in fact--good and that you don't have a partial failure.

I'm trying to keep the step-by-step simple but, I must admit that I had an ass-kicking experience with a bad stator just a few months ago. It measured 17V+ when measured as I described above. I could even connect a 60W headlight bulb to the leads and it would brightly light the bulb. That told me that not only was the voltage good but, it was also putting out decent current--a primitive load test.

Well, not so fast. It turned out that the stator was series-parallel wound (some of the coils in a single loop and groups of those were parallel wired). I had SOME of the loops open and at least one still closed. It was putting out enough current to light the headlight but, not a heck of a lot more. I screwed with that for over a week and one new voltage regulator and a ton of time looking for broken or corroded wires and connections. All logic said the stator was good. If I had put a greater load on it than the 60W bulb, I might have figured it out right away.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:30 AM   #26
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One of the links I posted wasn't working. So here is from the site w/picks on install. Scroll down to page 15

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/v/v....7%2011-11.pdf

Condensed link, click on extended info. should open a PDF.

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/pro...-altkit105.htm

Was going to post pics but not sure if it's propriety.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:52 AM   #27
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i'll disconnect things tonight and get a voltage measure out of the stator.

i never thought i'd gripe about someone doing such a clean installation, but the shop that installed this for the previous owner (apex cycles in ellijay, ga) wrapped everything in protective split plastic wrapping. it makes for a very neat install but it makes tracing wires and connections a real bear.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
If it measured zero while connected, that's still pretty conclusive but, I guess if the regulator-rectifier was dead shorted, that test might not decide which it is. In that case, the wires would be getting VERY hot and you'd notice but...

The logic is: the stator is an AC generator. If you disconnect it from everything else, it should still be an AC generator. If you measure the AC voltage on the wires going to the stator, it should tell you if that component is doing what it's supposed to. Most bikes produce 16-19V while the circuit is wide open and unregulated like that (maybe even higher).

Measuring it while connected tests the overall circuit, under load. It will tell you if ALL the windings in the stator are-in fact--good and that you don't have a partial failure.

I'm trying to keep the step-by-step simple but, I must admit that I had an ass-kicking experience with a bad stator just a few months ago. It measured 17V+ when measured as I described above. I could even connect a 60W headlight bulb to the leads and it would brightly light the bulb. That told me that not only was the voltage good but, it was also putting out decent current--a primitive load test.

Well, not so fast. It turned out that the stator was series-parallel wound (some of the coils in a single loop and groups of those were parallel wired). I had SOME of the loops open and at least one still closed. It was putting out enough current to light the headlight but, not a heck of a lot more. I screwed with that for over a week and one new voltage regulator and a ton of time looking for broken or corroded wires and connections. All logic said the stator was good. If I had put a greater load on it than the 60W bulb, I might have figured it out right away.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:17 PM   #28
photomd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
Every one of these diagnosis threads turns into a cluster-fuck of misinformation. To the best of my knowledge, you also can't do a diode test through the regulator stage of an integrated unit like that since there are other solid-state devices in the circuit. I've not torn into one but, I've read that the regulator is either an SCR/thyristor or transistor doing pulse width modulation to regulate current.
Really? A cluster fuck?

Here's what I know. My charging system from Euromotoelectric was having trouble keeping up with my heated jacket, grips and lights. I checked the system. I *think* I was showing around 35v AC at the yellow leads and pulled the R/R and was showing an open diode between one of the yellow leads and the red lead. I contacted John who confirmed that you could check the R/R that way. He also sent me a diagram to check the rest of the R/R. I *think* I also checked the diodes that are between the yellow leads and the ground. I thought that info would help bmwblake get more info to help fix his problem.

The way I read bmwblake's orginal post, I thought he wanted a way to check the R/R: it's a $130 part that he wanted to test before replacing. If that shit on your parade then in words of Steve Martin "WELL EXCUSE ME!" (Gotta link to the video, cause it's just funny: http://youtu.be/zANvYB93u2g )

In the end, I hope bmwblake gets it figured out. If I can help, I'd be glad to do so.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:03 PM   #29
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I appreciate all the input. I talked to Jon today and he sent me some more documentation that was helpful.

Ac voltage from the stator is very low compared to his chart. I'm only seeing 8 volts. This is measured with the leads disconnected before the r/r.

Also the r/r has obvious charring. The yellow wires are brown.

Jon's document mentioned what the resistance should be across the windings and I'm getting nothing.

I'll be talking with him again tomorrow but it looks like I might be headed for the joy of replacing both parts. If that's the case I'm not sure I'll keep the system. I have everything I need to go back to stock.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:40 PM   #30
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That sounds exactly how my Gold Wing used to blow them: regulator shorts internally, that causes the current flow from the stator to go through the roof, which burns a winding. The browned wires coming from the stator are the giveaway. That is--of course--assuming you didn't have giant driving lights and two full Gerbings suits connected to the bike.

If you don't mind the type of alternator it is, it's really no different than just about every other motorcycle out there. They all basically use the same type of system and both components failing is not that remote. You'll spend what every other person does when that happens. The easiest way out of this is to just replace the parts and move on.

Unless you can live with the output of the stock system.
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