2WD design thoughts

[Biebs]

Yes a trike would have the lead wheel centered or symetrical as you have pointed out.

Also your example Norton is a sidecar with no wheel lead.

One thing common on the 2WD sidecars is the 2nd wheel drive coming off the rear wheel.

I commended the original poster on his idea of using a PTO shaft off the engine as a different way of acheiving 2WD.

This is another example from your link: This is a sidecar with no wheel lead.

simple drive shaft did it have a freewheeling hub or consant 2WD??

looks like there is an egagement mechenism at the tug rear wheel.

[cleatusj]

XL-erate, I like the thoughts and it made me think that a jack shaft off of a chain drive engine would make a great pto that allows for a wider swingarm to fit car tire of what ever width one wanted to use.

Thanks for the idea.

[vortexau]

Originally Posted by Biebs

Yes a trike would have the lead wheel centered or symetrical as you have pointed out.

Biebs- Wheel lead concerns having the hack wheel offset forward of the tug rear wheel . . . . i.e. it "leads" the tug rear wheel enough that it passes a frame of reference earlier.

The front wheel (or the forward wheel) is another thing entirely.





The first diagram terms it "B Wheel Offset" while the second terms it "Axle Lead".

As I stated, some combinations (a very few) have no axle lead on the hack wheel, but have its axle inline with the rear wheel of the Tug. 99.4% of combinations have between 5" to 12" lead on the third wheel.

2WD is one factor which can negate having to have some lead on the hack wheel - as with the Norton Big 4. The Norton Big 4 is not a trike.

In post #9 you accused me of discussing Trikes, which I flatly deny any mention of prior to that post of yours in this thread!

[Biebs]

This idea has merit also could use the electric motor for a temp 2WD

and also use as a reverse driving the sidecar wheel. Think about it!!!

Originally Posted by ag_streak

I too would like to see at least a sketch of what you're proposing!

And now for something completely different...

I was thinking in a different direction. "Temporary" electric 2WD.

What if you simply had a deep cycle marine battery mounted on the hack frame and powering an electric motor with chain drive through an electric clutch to a sprocket mounted on the hack wheel, and a push button for your thumb on the handlebar?

Not intended for continuous operation. Just to get you unstuck out of mud or deep sand. You'd still be using your rear tire to provide thrust, but the sidecar wheel would be helping instead of hindering. The electric clutch could engage at the same time the power is applied to the motor, to prevent the motor shaft from turning all the time. It would negate, or at least minimize, the need for a winch for getting unstuck.

Best of both worlds, no?

Or am I once again orating from my anus?

[HogWild]

It doesn't sound all that original. I've seen every aspect you described in other designs. It's actually very similar to, though slightly more complicated than what I planned out several years ago for my rig. Though mine is:
1] Cheaper
2] Simpler
3] Lighter
4] Just as DIY
.
.
.

As someone else pointed out, it's not much until it's at least drawn on paper, or better yet fully fabricated, tested, and proven to hold up. I've had a LOT of ideas that sounded great, but when put to practice the "great" part never materialized. It's easy to dream something up. It's a whole different deal to others when they can see it in action.

The best part about the critique comments many have posted is that you can use those as motivation to build it and prove you were right all along. I don't see them as jabs. I see them just like I see your post, as an attempt to help.

[XL-erate]

Originally Posted by cleatusj

XL-erate, I like the thoughts and it made me think that a jack shaft off of a chain drive engine would make a great pto that allows for a wider swingarm to fit car tire of what ever width one wanted to use.

Thanks for the idea.

Thanks very much, Cleatus, I appreciate it! Hope it's of some use to you.

Because of negative reaction, open insults, trashing of thread and so many other folks posting their own better ideas of the best 2WD designs I've decided to leave it to them and to delete the major substance of my original posts. Apparently it isn't needed so I'll simply remove it to keep everybody happy.

Thanks again!

[Prmurat]

Would it not possible to start from the Dnepr design and make it more sturdy?

[HogWild]

Originally Posted by XL-erate

...my brother is a lawyer, and we can always use some pocket change.

Sounds like a threat, which in my view is far less welcome here than technical critique. I’d love to see your final product proven in real life challenging off-road use, and see how that “cheaper, simpler, lighter, stronger” works out. It’s quite arrogant to claim all those superior aspects without having an actual working (proven) prototype.

How does it work when the engine sprocket is on the opposite side as the sidecar?

How do you put 50% of a 100HP engine through a clutch without that clutch being slightly heavy and/or bulky? Is the clutch fully enclosed and sealed to keep out dirt and water? How do you mount and seal it without adding weight and bulk? How does the clutch get disengaged? Handlebar lever? Foot pedal? When fully disengaged, such as when on the highway, doesn’t the slight drag over many miles wear that clutch out pretty quickly? What happened when the side wheel gets traction when the rear wheel is slipping due to mud or sand? Doesn’t all the horsepower go through that clutch?

What happens when you go around a turn with it engaged, and the sidecar wheel tries to rotate faster than the drive shaft? Any friction/drag at all would make it an inferior concept in my view.

I’m sure you’ve worked out all these issues, but it’s not clear from your brief (now deleted) description.

If I understand your concept correctly, I’ve seen every component used before in sidecar 2WD systems. And all those components have been discussed right here on ADV in other 2WD discussions. So what is the unique part of yours? To me it looks like you’ve “invented” something that’s been done before, made wild technical claims about something you haven’t even built, and made assumptions about decades of designs by many others without ever having seen those other designs. Then when critiqued you cry about it. Your “gift” to us here, or at least to me, is your entertaining personality, not your 2WD vision.

[vortexau]

Originally Posted by XL-erate

Okay, folks, I modified my original posts to remove anything that might distract from others much better designs shown here. There's all kinds of superior ways to build 2WD given in this thread so I figured I'd give it to them to keep a nice happy atmosphere to instruct and help others.

Interesting the requests for pictures explaining how it worked?

Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, XL-erate.

Many, many, many, others have already considered plenty of ideas for creating a 2WD Outfit. I've had my own, and that's going back more than thirty years - well before I ever owned an outfit!

I've lost count of haw many I've had (more than 18) and none required twisting a motorcycle engine about 90% in its existing mountings. Why do this? There is already a choice of output from different makes & models - heck, Honda (and likely other Japanese builders) have multiple motor and gearbox versions with shaft, chain, or belt exiting from an exact same rear corner of the housing. More than thirty years ago I realized a chain drive sprocket could be modified to "twist" a layshaft.

Just like the same interval ago I realized some shaft-drive units could be changed for Left Hand lateral toothed belt/chain, and still others for Right Hand lateral toothed belt/chains. GWs, CX-GL500/650, BMW, Guzzi on the Right, and most other Japanese on the Left. Haven't looked up MV Augusta nor Rocket III!

I (also) realized that there was no abiding reason why an outfit's motor could not sit just rear of the line between hack and tug-rear wheels. GP racing sidecars could have used 2WD, but it may well be a banned technology. GP racing sidecars have employed many different engine locations and orientations.

Many, many, ideas keep popping up. Many hatch ideas and then discard those for better ones. The KISS rule has never been so applicable to Hack 2WD concepts. Mobec ignores this rule, and that's why one will normally need a second morgage to go the Mobec route.

Apparently people have never read U.S. Patent applications and their design descriptions, all written in text to explain function. When I was a child they gave me books with big pictures of bunnies and flowers and Mr. Sunshine because I wasn't yet able to read the English language or understand it. For some people, some things never change...

.

Researching U.S. Patent applications and their designs may be helpful, but the outright rubbish to possible useable fractions could just be in the ratio of 25:1

Safety on motorcycles anyone?





Maybe Pakistan can Patent their ideas for increasing passenger capacity for railway transportation?



. . . . . .

[claude]

I think I am a little bit baffled by this thread. What's the big deal here? Gotta be about a zillion different ways to create two wheel drive if someone wants to do it. And it has been done in various ways already. Heck lets go for three wheel drive while we're at it. If two is good three must be better.

[jbcaddy]

Originally Posted by claude

Heck lets go for three wheel drive while we're at it. If two is good three must be better.

Christini two-wheel-drive motorcycle + driven wheel hack would be just the thing! somebody loan me some money and I'l get right on it.

[Bobmws]

Originally Posted by claude

I think I am a little bit baffled by this thread. What's the big deal here? Gotta be about a zillion different ways to create two wheel drive if someone wants to do it. And it has been done in various ways already. Heck lets go for three wheel drive while we're at it. If two is good three must be better.

Easy, a hydraulic pump driven directly from the bike motor, 3 hydraulic motors connected through adjustable proportioning valves. Hell, even an old turdherder like me can figure that one out........

[XL-erate]

Originally Posted by HogWild

Sounds like a threat, which in my view is far less welcome here than technical critique. I’d love to see your final product proven in real life challenging off-road use, and see how that “cheaper, simpler, lighter, stronger” works out. It’s quite arrogant to claim all those superior aspects without having an actual working (proven) prototype.

How does it work when the engine sprocket is on the opposite side as the sidecar?

How do you put 50% of a 100HP engine through a clutch without that clutch being slightly heavy and/or bulky? Is the clutch fully enclosed and sealed to keep out dirt and water? How do you mount and seal it without adding weight and bulk? How does the clutch get disengaged? Handlebar lever? Foot pedal? When fully disengaged, such as when on the highway, doesn’t the slight drag over many miles wear that clutch out pretty quickly? What happened when the side wheel gets traction when the rear wheel is slipping due to mud or sand? Doesn’t all the horsepower go through that clutch?

What happens when you go around a turn with it engaged, and the sidecar wheel tries to rotate faster than the drive shaft? Any friction/drag at all would make it an inferior concept in my view.

I’m sure you’ve worked out all these issues, but it’s not clear from your brief (now deleted) description.

If I understand your concept correctly, I’ve seen every component used before in sidecar 2WD systems. And all those components have been discussed right here on ADV in other 2WD discussions. So what is the unique part of yours? To me it looks like you’ve “invented” something that’s been done before, made wild technical claims about something you haven’t even built, and made assumptions about decades of designs by many others without ever having seen those other designs. Then when critiqued you cry about it. Your “gift” to us here, or at least to me, is your entertaining personality, not your 2WD vision.

　
As for patents, I didn't mention anything about patents, end of story on that. Regarding: "I’d love to see your final product proven in real life challenging off-road use, and see how that "cheaper, simpler, lighter, stronger" works out. It’s quite arrogant to claim all those superior aspects without having an actual working (proven) prototype."

Can't recall where I specified this for extremely challenging off road use though it's somewhat implied. There are countless uses in normal riding on moderate back roads, snow etc. where it would be very usefull as compared to use in mud up to your kneecaps or sand up to the fuel tank. If one desired to build for ultra-extreme use then it's again real simple: they will have to build accordingly.

I gave a detailed description that an inventive mind with suitable experience could apply to a working design based on their own particulars and needs and skills. Folks who lack what it takes in requirements needed to build it themselves obviously should not undertake to do so. Many of those who are qualified and able have already communicated their plans to me based on what was posted so apparently there's not a whole lot missing to a clever mind in the description I gave, but later deleted.

Regarding your long list of questions, I didn't include answers to all those for several reasons. First, it was already a very long post and I didn't want to stretch it out to 50,000 words and a full page of text. That was out of respect to others.

Many of those questions are answered by the builder looking at his particular application and use. I never set out to describe every conceivable variable or possibility that could ever occur in the lifetime of the design according to every possible use or application of it. The list of possible questions is virtually endless so there's not much point, nor do I have the time and inclination, in answering them all before they're asked.
　
An example: "How does it work when the engine sprocket is on the opposite side as the sidecar?" Answer: It works exactly the same but the builder's design parameters have changed slightly in which case he would have to adapt accordingly and if he is too limited in his abilities to do so he shouldn't try to build it!

Regarding the many questions about clutches one might take apart a DANA 70 - 80 Power-Lok rearend and see what the clutch packs look like and just how huge and robust they are. If you never have you're in for a shock. Yet those small, skinny, skimpy little clutch discs and steels can transmit full power from a 500 HP ultra-torquer diesel for over 200,000 miles with no service required! Or how big, hulking monstrously massive are the clutches in a 150-200 HP motorcycle??? By any chance are they about 4"-5" diameter and about 1/8"-3/16" thick???

You claim to have seen 'every component' of my design description used before and described right here in ADV.
Strange that, because I've read virtually every thread on this forum on the subject and I never saw anything even vaguely similar described with details and descriptions of how it works, or with working models shown. I've never seen it on any other bike or sidecar forum, or any offroad and dunebuggy type forum, or any automotive machine related forum. Suprises me that you suggest that examples of the same design are scattered throughout this forum when I haven't seen one single mention anywhere on the whole internet in almost 20 years of searching: NOT THIS DESIGN, that's for absolute sure!

Similar? What, that a clutch can be used in transmission of power? No kidding, and since about 1899, but nothing specifically like this. You suggest that you've seen 'every component' used in sidecar 2WD. Were those components that I described, every one that you've found mentioned 'elsewhere', assembled together into a single very simple working system that can be built at home by a skilled and experienced guy with only one outside machining process required and no complicated manufactured parts or extremely expensive manufactured assemblies used?


It is 100% original from my own mind and God given talents in mechanical things.

.

[XL-erate]

Originally Posted by claude

I think I am a little bit baffled by this thread. What's the big deal here? Gotta be about a zillion different ways to create two wheel drive if someone wants to do it. And it has been done in various ways already. Heck lets go for three wheel drive while we're at it. If two is good three must be better.

Hey ya, Claude!

The big deal? Don't know if you saw the original post before I chose to delete it after all the insults and thread trashing? It was a clearly written and simple description of a very mechanically simple 2WD system that I laid out as a free gift to any who wanted to build it.

Apparently most folks were unable to read the words at all. They added words I didn't say, misinterpreted what I did say, misapplied what I said from how it was intended and described to be applied, disagreed with me over things I didn't ever say, added open insults to my character and intentions and what I had written, accused me of saying things I never said, accused me of theft of other's intellectual property and accused of boasting that other's intellectual property and hard work were actually mine! In addition the posting of piles of huge even gigantic and totally, thoroughly unrelated pictures quickly and completlely trashed the entire thread into oblivion so that all original meaning and intention and benefit was lost. Other than that I guess no big deal?

I'll be talking to you this week if possible...

[Prmurat]

Very interesting thread
Let me understand: you do not want to show anything 'cause of patent (non existing as now right?) infringement fear?
But at the same everyone trying to understand your “words” and not agreeing is an a$$hole?
Why don’t you patent your genius system (no sarcasm) and come back with a product you could sale proving your idea were good?
Right now it is only: