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Old 09-24-2013, 09:16 AM   #1636
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interesting perspective:

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Just who are they booing?


Sebastian Vettel already commands 3 driver's championships and is well on his way to a 4th consecutive title, however if the actions heard at recent podium celebrations of fans are to believed he has also become a driver that is dis liked.

Opinion amongst fans about who is the best driver will always be swayed by the fact that most people follow a specific team or driver. What however is clear is that some drivers can transcend this trait as either they have moved between teams and therefore carry support from past endeavors, they drive for a team that bears a different Nationality to their own or they are media savvy. The latter is a difficult one for some drivers as perhaps 75% of the media that follow the F1 circus are British, this therefore tends to skew the representation of the facts in a certain way.

Those countries that have their own media that follow the F1 circus, like Italy and Germany obviously favour their own too, with Ferrari sharing most of the limelight in Italy and (currently) Mercedes in Germany. Vettel should therefore be able to command a good media presence and therefore a good standing in the fans eyes by virtue of him driving for a British team and being of German Nationality.

The problem however is how he comes across (at least in the British media), his confidence often borders on arrogance whilst his 1 finger salute to winning grinds many fans gears. Whenever we see him he is in PR mode, wearing his racesuit in a FIA post session interview or in the pit huddle with one of the reporters. We rarely see the relaxed Vettel doing a feature the likes of Jenson, Lewis etc partake in for Sky or the BBC which represents their lighter side. He also has the problem of following and very much cast in the footsteps of Michael Schumacher, of the same Nationality and with the same win at all costs mentality he doesn't ingratiate himself into the mind of Brits. That however is another debate that see's the British at their best when supporting an under dog (usually one of our own) and is akin to small man (Island) syndrome.

Aware of the 'boo boys' that have taken to booing his performances as he stands on the podium to receive the trophy he deservedly been awarded, Sebastian doesn't seem overly concerned by it, nor should he. Booing is essentially a signal of disdain but then can we assume that these people are unhappy with the best driver on that given day, or indeed most days during the GP weekend's this season? Or are they unhappy with their own driver and feel this is the best way to shame their performance?

If we draw parallels with other sports and in this instance football (or Soccer dependent on where you are reading this) then you boo your own team when you are upset by the performance they have given in that match or a string of matches that preceded it. As Sebastien is achieving the best result possible then we can only surmise that the 'boo boys' are people that support other drivers/teams. Whilst it would appear they are booing Vettel essentially they are lauding him and pouring scorn on their own driver(s).

I constantly hear the phrase 'Yes, but he has the best car' well that may all be well and true but it is only the best because it is married to his talents. Mark Webber is a fantastic driver but prefers a car that can only be described as less aerodynamically dependent, wielding the same car as Vettel during his 3 championship years he has yet to best the German...

The same can be said for other Championship winning drivers, on their day their team mate will take victory but when it comes down to a sustained challenge the cream always rises to the top. Drawing parallels once more, we could look at the dominance of Michael Schumacher taking 5 titles from 2000-2004.
Had BrawnGP not have made the grid in 2009 and/or utilised the Double Decker Diffusers that dominated the performance of that years cars Sebastian could be looking at taking his 5th consecutive title this year not his 4th and drawing level with Schumacher's consecutive dominance.

So having the best car does win you Championships? Well of course, Formula One is a team sport that requires not only the best driver, but the best strategists, engineers, pit crew, facilities, car and of course the driver. To those that say Sebastian is not a good driver I'd suggest you cast your mind back to Monza 2008 when he took victory for Toro Rosso or many of his drives through adversity that required a calm and presence of mind that many don't possess. (Abu Dhabi and Interlagos 2012 are two of the most recent examples where he was forced to recover from earlier mistakes)


The question remains with a widesweeping regulation change in 2014 will his dominance remain? The regulations that were introduced in 2009 are undoubtedly one of the contributors to Red Bull / Vettel's dominance over the last 5 seasons (once they installed the DDD in 2009 they really were the team to beat). The switch from in race refuelling, slick tyres and heavy dependance on the use of aero suit the Milton Keynes based squad. The problem for Sebastian is momentum, the upheaval in regulations for next season may dilute some of the areas he finds advantages, namely commitment as their current crop of cars have had such amazing aero balance, Pirelli will undoubtedly scale back the level of performance/grip their tyres give and lastly we see a return to the power units making a difference between the teams. In the short term then, he may find himself on the back foot or could be even more dominant than ever.

World Champions are not made by mistake, they are the best of the best over a season long campaign that requires the utmost dedication from them both on and off the track, Sebastian has proved this for 3 years running putting him amongst some of the greatest names that have graced F1.

At 26 he finds himself in the company of Jack Brabham, Niki Lauda, Jackie Stewart, Nelson Piquet and Ayrton Senna. Whilst at the end of the season he could join the ranks of 4 times winner Alain Prost, leaving him every chance of eclipsing Fangio's 5 and Schumacher's 7 world drivers titles.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:23 AM   #1637
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The football analogy is well made: look at Man Utd. Probably one of the consistently better performers and one that has a wide following. It's also one of the most disliked by people who support other teams, well beyond what might be expected from team rivalry.

I quite like Vettel. If you've seen him away from the F1 circus he is personable and has a very good sense of humour - a good mimic too.

You can add Hamilton to the list of those who think that the booing is wrong:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24206375

It's Red Bull Racing that I don't like.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #1638
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I like neither Red Bull nor Vettel. I despise the dark presence of the acerbic Helmut Marko. I think Red Bull get away with cheating. Vettel comes across as a spoiled, petulant child. His complaint that Hamilton passed him on track was classic Vettel. And yes, the winning bothers me, of course it does.

Vettel's a very good driver. Put Hamilton and Alonso on his team and let's see where he finishes. It wouldn't be first, of that I'm sure.

I earnestly hope that next year's rules changes thoroughly upset the order in F1. But Red Bull spend more money than any other team and because they have the best designer in Adrian Newey, it will only be a matter of time before they rise to the top again. If Newey sticks around long enough, Vettel will eclipse Schumacher's 7 titles.
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:30 PM   #1639
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:02 PM   #1640
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I just got to see this race last night, one of the few I have seen this year (no cable). I thought it was a good race with lots of passing, especially for an F1 race! The cars were all pretty tight together, apart from SV, which made his ability to run away from the pack at up to 2 1/2 seconds a lap even more impressive! KR's pass of Button was also very impressive!
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:09 PM   #1641
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I don't understand why most don't think Vettel is that good.
Newey designed Webbers car as well. Alonso, Hamiltion and Vettel are all clear leaders and do out perform their teammates regularly and seem to get the most out of the car.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:32 PM   #1642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joef View Post
I don't understand why most don't think Vettel is that good.
Newey designed Webbers car as well. Alonso, Hamiltion and Vettel are all clear leaders and do out perform their teammates regularly and seem to get the most out of the car.
This line in the post at the top of the page...

Quote:
I constantly hear the phrase 'Yes, but he has the best car' well that may all be well and true but it is only the best because it is married to his talents. Mark Webber is a fantastic driver but prefers a car that can only be described as less aerodynamically dependent,
...might help to explain. It's been fairly well understood over the years that driving techniques vary and that sometimes, in the same team, with identical cars, two drivers will have widely varying success.

Webber's style depends on mechanical grip. He's harder on a car that relies on aero grip and it partly explains why he seems to make more mistakes and suffers more failures.

That's what's so pointless about the speculation around how well Vettel would do if suddenly teamed with Alonso or Hamilton if either were dropped into Webber's seat. What would be interesting is to see how things would work out if Button was in the other Red Bull - he and Vettel are probably the closest in style. Alonso, Hamilton, Raikonnen and (to a degree but not nearly as good) Webber, are all ragged-edge drivers.
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:32 PM   #1643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joef View Post
I don't understand why most don't think Vettel is that good.
I don't understand that assessment. Most people would say he's an exceptional driver for any era.

He just happens to come across as a douchebag, and people generally dont like douchebags. He's the Stoner of F1.
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:47 PM   #1644
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Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
I don't understand that assessment. Most people would say he's an exceptional driver for any era.

He just happens to come across as a douchebag, and people generally dont like douchebags. He's the Stoner of F1.
Please explain to me what makes him a douchebag or coming across as one, do you know him? I assume your a Stoner hater as well, does that carry across the board to anyone's success.
And what does driving style have to do with anything, he who scores the most points wins , period
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:18 PM   #1645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g容g View Post
interesting perspective:
Quote:
Just who are they booing?


... Aware of the 'boo boys' that have taken to booing his performances as he stands on the podium to receive the trophy he deservedly been awarded, Sebastian doesn't seem overly concerned by it, nor should he. Booing is essentially a signal of disdain but then can we assume that these people are unhappy with the best driver on that given day, or indeed most days during the GP weekend's this season? Or are they unhappy with their own driver and feel this is the best way to shame their performance?

If we draw parallels with other sports and in this instance football (or Soccer dependent on where you are reading this) then you boo your own team when you are upset by the performance they have given in that match or a string of matches that preceded it. As Sebastien is achieving the best result possible then we can only surmise that the 'boo boys' are people that support other drivers/teams. Whilst it would appear they are booing Vettel essentially they are lauding him and pouring scorn on their own driver(s). ...
Thanks for that. You didn't give the source. Appears it was SomersF1.

Does the football analogy make sense? If "your" team is defeated, do you show your displeasure with your players by cheering them and booing the victors?

Perhaps I'm behind the times. But even the blogger refers to people booing "your own" team when they underperform.

Were the boos in Singapore really for Alonso and Raikonnen, and not for Vettel after all? How could we (and Horner, Brundle, Lauda, Coulthard and a bunch of reporters) have so missed the point?

I wasn't there, and didn't see the podium coverage on TV, so can't gauge the potential there for misunderstanding.

Were similarly mistaken inferences drawn over the cheering of Vettel's retirement at Silverstone? Andrew Frankel at Motorsport magazine seemed in no doubt that the target was Vettel:

Quote:
Believe me, had it been Mark Webber parking up, the crowd would have been as sympathetic towards him as it was vitriolic towards Vettel. Make no mistake, this was personal.
More here ...

Frankel sources the vitriol to the "Multi-21, Seb" incident in Malaysia, or rather to its aftermath, observing:

Quote:
What I suspect poisoned our view of Vettel was not what he did, nor even that the man he did it to, while Australian, is considered one of us. All that was salvageable. What put him beyond the pale was his statement that put in that position again, he’d do exactly the same thing. In our eyes, that was Vettel’s Rubicon moment.
What Frankel leaves out is just what was the "thing" Vettel said he'd repeat.

We can't know precisely, because we can't go back in time as flies to perch on the wall at the pre-race team meeting (or wherever the alleged multi-21 deal was made).

But from the outside it is hard to avoid the perception that:

1. Vettel agreed to a deal that would preserve the finishing order after the final pit-stop.

2. Vettel reneged on the deal when it turned out that the outcome would advantage not him but his team-mate.

And in the aftermath,

3. Vettel asserted that he would always renege on a deal with a team-mate if it turned out the deal advantaged the team-mate.



(Pic linked through from the Motorsport magazine online article.)

Sadly, Vettel does not seem to understand the significance of that assertion, whether it was intended or merely perceived. Essentially, he was saying very publicly that he was the sort of person who would blithely make deals that he had no intention of sticking to.

In earthier language: that he was a liar and a fraud and did not care who knew it.

Now, since that's an absurd statement to make - it doesn't pay frauds to advertise - we can guess that Vettel does show more character privately.

Problem is, he has done nothing since to correct that very public assertion; indeed, in statements he has made since, he has seemed to affirm it.

And not everybody is comfortable seeing an avowed fraud consistently at the top in F1.

IMO, that is at the root of the booing, and Vettel could end the derision in an instant if he could show that he got it.

But then, I'm one of those not so comfortable. I don't think it's a good look for F1.

So I'm glad someone's booing at trackside: in the circumstances, that is a good look for fans of F1.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:26 AM   #1646
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yup sorry, SomersF1
I think he missed the mark on that piece....
His "Kimi to Ferrari" was not bad though:

Quote:
Raikkonen to Ferrari "Yes Yes Yes, Leave me alone I know what I'm doing"



Kimi Raikkonen is first and foremost an enigma and often seen by the media as an introvert, the Finn (at least to the media) prefers to be speak when spoken to and then at best keep his responses to a minimum. His media savvy however is not what interests teams, it's his ability behind the wheel. Since impressing as a rookie at the wheel of a Sauber he has gone on to build a reputation for being both fast and consistent. Having spent time at both McLaren, Ferrari and most recently Lotus his career has seen him drive for some of the best teams. He is what I would classify an old skool racer able to transcend categories having had success outside of F1.

Financial issues have dogged the relationship between himself and Lotus throughout his tenure, with the team reportedly paying the Finn at the end of each season rather than throughout it. This with a lack of contract in place for 2014 it became clear that the Finn would become hot property. Openly courted by Red Bull Racing to replace the outgoing Mark Webber it seemed for a short time that the driver would see out the rest of his career with the Milton Keynes based squad. At the same time though many of us talked about the potential for him to return to Ferrari and partner Fernando Alonso, a mouth watering partnership that has 3 driver's championships between it.

With Kimi choosing Ferrari the question remains, was it a gamble for Ferrari to re-hire a driver that they had previously bought out of their contract?

There are two ways we can look at the prospect of this driver lineup but from Ferrari's perspective their reasoning is sound. Rather than chase the drivers Championship with a defacto number one driver they will now chase it with two. If we were to combine Alonso & Raikkonen's points for this season, Ferrari would still be in the hunt for the Constructors title on 336 points, only 41 points behind Red Bull (Upto and including Singapore). Whereas we currently find Alonso and Massa's tally much shorter (274 points) leaving the team trailing the Bull's by 103 points. Of course it's like comparing Apples and Oranges as Kimi may not have collated as many points as he has at Lotus but it just goes to show the potential of pairing these 2 great drivers.

Kimi's previous stint at Ferrari saw him take the drivers Championship so the team know only too well he has the ability. As mentioned above Ferrari must have also considered the factor that they want to regain the Constructor's Championship and the most efficient way to do this is to not only have a great car but great drivers too. Their focus over the last few years seems to have been heavily skewed in Fernando's favour and although Felipe Massa has done a decent job since their partnership began in 2010 it hasn't been enough to challenge Red Bull Racing. The team want a driver that is consistent and scoring good points but also pushing their other driver, I fear Felipe was no longer doing the latter. Fernando has spoken out over the Singapore GP weekend insisting he was kept in the loop by Ferrari in regard to the change of driver. He fully understands the implications of having another world champion alongside him and will more than likely relishes the challenge.

Many ex drivers, corners of the media and fans have talked about the driver pairing as a mistake and will lead to an explosive battle between the two, but age and experience is another weapon in terms of racing each other on the track. After all the biggest faux pas in racing is to encumber your team mate. Taking a younger driver like the touted move for Nico Hulkenberg could have led to the team needing to manage their drivers more, this task therefore should be lessened. However lest we forget former team mates that let their rivalry overtake the needs of the team include Prost/Senna and Alonso/Hamilton amongst others so it's not beyond the realms of possibility it could happen once more at Ferrari.

Kimi is often criticized because he appears to lack motivation but one thing is for sure, as soon as he puts the helmet on he is 100% focused. The criticism stems from his lack of off track testing, whilst other drivers spend hours in the simulator Kimi prefers not to. He doesn't partake in track walks before the GP weekend either and cites both as an unnecessary waste of his time, saying he knows the track and the best way to find the differences is behind the wheel. His feedback whilst in the car is second to none and this is probably one of the largest factors behind Ferrari re-aligning themselves with him. With the huge rule changes coming in 2014 having experienced drivers like Kimi and Fernando able to give feedback and develop the car will be crucial.

At nearly 2 years older than the man in the opposite side of the garage it must be said that Kimi is in the twilight of his career and so the 2 year contract he has signed with Ferrari will probably be his last for a competitive F1 team. This will therefore make him motivated to best both his team mate and the rest of the field should he be given a competitive car. The other perhaps coincidental aspect of the signing of Kimi for 2 years is that Sebastian Vettel will also be coming to the end of his Red Bull contract should Ferrari want to sign the German.

Alonso's future with the team has also been questioned over the last few months with rumours as absurd as him taking a years sabbatical top of my list. Of course during the Singapore GP weekend we have had 'no comments' from the likes of Martin Whitmarsh as the media try to ignite rumours of a swoop by McLaren. This only fuels the fire of speculation and so Alonso swiftly denied any intent to leave the team he now feels is his own and molded around him.

Ferrari remain the team that all drivers aspire to race for and I see no reason for Fernando to deviate from his desire to stay there. He has made rousing speeches of late which have perhaps annoyed certain corners within the team/fan base but you cannot fault his commitment to the cause. Leaving Ferrari would mean finding a seat in another top team and at his age settling in and making the team his own once more may be more of a task than he is willing to undertake.

2014 brings with it a plethora of technical changes so the psychological fight between the two champions that will drive for Ferrari may have to wait, it won't however stop the media writing about a battle between the two whether it exists of not.

But what are your thoughts? Has Kimi made a mistake moving back to Ferrari when he was so ceremonially dispatched of in 2009? Have Ferrari made a shrewd move to lure Kimi back in order to win the Constructor's title? Will Fernando stay at Ferrari or do you think he feels threatened enough to make a move away?
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:37 AM   #1647
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For those with an xbox 360, you can get a nice free Lotus F1 theme for your xbox home background.

Go browse the themes (under games, extras) sort by title, and look for the "Degree Mens Lotus F1 Team Theme". Then you can apply it by going to social, highlight your avatar, hit the A button, then choose change themes and pick the new theme.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:16 AM   #1648
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quite a good read from F1 plus

Quote:
Is it really always Webber?

Surely, the Australian "seems" to suffer more mechanical problems and misfortunes than his teammate, but it could be more a perception that a hard reality.
Wednesday, September 25, 2013

1

By Graham Keilloh



Mark Webber's luck seems to be different than one of Sebastian Vettel. (Getty/Red Bull)



September 25th, 2013 (F1plus/G. Keilloh).- To borrow from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem.
And so it may apply to Mark Webber. The common narrative among those watching on is it that one of these days he'll reveal a t-shirt under his workwear, in the style of Mario Balotelli, reading 'why always me?' The perception of many is that it is indeed always Webber; that he has something close to a monopoly on Red Bull technical bad luck. Some go so far as to mutter conspiratorial suggestions about it all. That it was his engine, not stable mate Sebastian Vettel's, that went pop in Sunday's Singapore race was just the latest lot of grist to this particular mill.
But is it as it seems, or is it that the common perception doesn't chime with fact? There is at least potential for the latter being so, as after all Vettel is usually the more successful of the two, and it's life that the worse your outcomes are the more that setbacks and supposed 'ill-luck' will be dwelt upon. And it manifests itself in F1 especially, including that in motor sport the leader, uniquely, is in the privileged position of managing problems, to drive well within the car's limits, and still get the same result (and let's face it, Seb leads much more often than Mark does).
And, at the broadest level, the numbers don't really bear 'it's always Mark' out. In Austin last year Webber retired with alternator trouble, but that was his first mechanical retirement in 59 races, or in other words for upwards of three years. Brake failure at the 2009 Singapore Grand Prix was the previous time that technical gremlins stopped Webber early. And, for what it's worth, Vettel had to down tools ahead of time with mechanical failures in five separate races in that time. One suspects had it been the other way around that comparison would have been reported more forcibly.
Since then there's been little difference too. Last Sunday's stoppage only made it 2-1 to Webber over Vettel on mechanical retirements this season, and Webber only noses ahead thanks to a wheel not being attached properly in a pit stop in China. Something which can be filed under freak.
A-ha, some will say, this does not take into account technical problems that impede Webber without stopping him (and Webber has in the past for example seemed to have problems with KERS rather frequently). This is true, but equally it's not as if Seb never gets them. He of course had a gear selection problem in Monza which required him to short shift, while in Singapore he complained of a vibration which the team reckons could have lost him victory had any rival been in the same stratosphere on pace.
And there are more examples in this campaign: in Australia's FP1 Vettel stopped with an electrical problem; in China he didn't set a time in Q3 due to a brake issue; in Germany his KERS failed in the race, as well as he couldn't use it at its highest level on Hungary's race day. While, lest we forget, in Abu Dhabi towards the end of last season he missed almost all of FP3 with a brake problem and then was shunted to the back of the grid after something caused him to not make it back to the pits at the end of qualifying as well as not to have enough fuel for the obligatory sample. There are plenty of other instances from history too.
I'd really love one of these days for someone to do a proper analysis of the extent, if at all, that Webber indeed does get more of these problems than Vettel. It wouldn't surprise me if the difference isn't nearly as stark as is often assumed.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:25 AM   #1649
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When is booing justified?

For me, it's not about personality or winning or losing, it's about sportsmanlike conduct.
I disdained Schumacher for cheating, parking his car on the race line during qualifying and other behaviors for which he was officially penalized.
The same for Stoner and Simoncelli. Both had repeated behavior problems that endangered others and required official intervention.

Vettel, not so much. Vettel plays fairly. In his case, I think race fans are the ones being unsportsmanlike.
When Vettel appeared on David Letterman awhile back, Letterman was the douche. Vettel handled it quite well.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:11 AM   #1650
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Booing at sports events is fine by anybody, at any time, at anyone. It's sports, for goodness sake. We're supposed to cheer and boo. Brits seem constipated when it comes to booing. They need a cleansing visit to Philadelphia.
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