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Old 11-08-2013, 05:27 AM   #1861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyMushman View Post
A very different track than wide open Spa, but lap times from the Nurburgring (the real one) are available for comparison. In his epic '57 German GP, Fangio did a 9'17" lap in a Maserati 250F. A 9' lap isn't very special there anymore. So, he's right.
But the 'Ring too has seen some modifications, and the Fangio's time is from an era where they used southern loop too along with northern loop (Nordschleife). It is like comparing Bridge to Gantry, full lap or full lap with GP track lap times against each other, all are run with different lengths (though in some case full lap time can be calculated pretty accurately from BtoG lap time). Also since the 50's-early 70's the track has become quicker, some sections are straighten out, jumps flattened etc.
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:08 AM   #1862
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Laugh The old Drivers would whoop these whipper snappers ass'

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Originally Posted by HoneyBunz View Post
It's pretty cool when you think 50 years after that race, many mass produced, consumer cars could outperform those race cars.

I would say you need to watch more Top Gear and Myth Busters, and Go to Goodwood There are GP and LMP/SCC cars from the from the 50's 60's can easily beat any normal production cars and keep up or still beat modern Ferrari's etc and I saw one where a 30's Bentley, Still had a better 0-60 time than many modern sports cars.

Mark Hales and Nick Mason, put some classics against the stopwatch at Silverstone's South Circuit. In order of age:

Bugatti T35B: 0-60 6.0, 0-100 14.8, lap time 1m 27.4
ERA B Type: 0-60 4.8, 0-100 11.0, lap time 1m 21.8
BRM V16 Mk2: 0-60 3.9, 0-100 7.9, lap time n/a (guess what? it broke down!)
Ferrari 250 GTO: 0-60 6.5, 0-100 14.2, lap time 1m 20.9s
Ferrari 312T3: 0-60 3.0, 0-100 5.5, lap time 1:01.9
Tyrell 011: 0-60 2.9, 0-100 5.3, lap time 1:02.2
Ferrari F40 (road std spec): 0-60 3.9, 0-100 7.8, lap time 1:14.5
BMW E36 M3 (road std spec): 0-60 5.4, 0-100 12.8, lap time 1m 21.9

So whilst road cars have moved on, racing cars have always been a long way ahead of contempary road cars; so far ahead in fact that even a racing car 60 years old like the BRM V16 can still hold its own against a modern day super car.

I did see a Top Gear where they had a old Quatro VS a Modern VW or something on a Rally Course and the new Car won.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:34 AM   #1863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
But do you seriously believe that what happened this year is down to the driver and not the car?
When was the last win for Toro Rosso?! 2008 Italian GP:


Pos No Driver Constructor Laps Time/Retired Grid Points
1 15 Germany Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari 53 1:26:47.494 1 10
2 23 Finland Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 53 +12.512 2 8
3 4 Poland Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 53 +20.471 11 6
4 5 Spain Fernando Alonso Renault 53 +23.903 8 5
5 3 Germany Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 53 +27.748 10 4
6 2 Brazil Felipe Massa Ferrari 53 +28.816 6 3
7 22 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 53 +29.912 15 2
8 10 Australia Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 53 +32.048 3 1
9 1 Finland Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 53 +39.468 14
10 6 Brazil Nelson Piquet Jr. Renault 53 +54.445 17
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:41 AM   #1864
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more fuel for a fire...
splitter theories

a good conspiracy read from SommersF1

LINK
Very interesting! Good find.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:44 AM   #1865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN95 View Post
When was the last win for Toro Rosso?! 2008 Italian GP:


Pos No Driver Constructor Laps Time/Retired Grid Points
1 15 Germany Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari 53 1:26:47.494 1 10
2 23 Finland Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 53 +12.512 2 8
3 4 Poland Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 53 +20.471 11 6
4 5 Spain Fernando Alonso Renault 53 +23.903 8 5
5 3 Germany Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 53 +27.748 10 4
6 2 Brazil Felipe Massa Ferrari 53 +28.816 6 3
7 22 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 53 +29.912 15 2
8 10 Australia Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 53 +32.048 3 1
9 1 Finland Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 53 +39.468 14
10 6 Brazil Nelson Piquet Jr. Renault 53 +54.445 17
I don't see the relevance.

I'm not saying Vettel is bad driver. I am saying he's not as great as his numbers would suggest and that he is benefitting greatly -- greatly -- from being on the richest team with possibly the greatest aerodynamicist in F1 history.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #1866
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I don't disagree with most of that, just one thing, I don't believe they're driving identical cars.
They are different only with respect to personal differences, seat, steering wheel ect.... All the rest is the same IMHO. Adrian is the saddest to see Webber leave because he counted on him more than Seb to test new aero parts. According so him, Mark can feel things Seb cannot. On the otherhand Seb can launch the car, go faster on demand pass other cars, win races consistantly etc. Too bad Webber did not know his place in the team he might be missed! Too bad Christian fucked up the relationship with multi 21.


Can't wait for team orders next year like, Fernando, Kimi is faster than you!
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I don't see the relevance.

I'm not saying Vettel is bad driver. I am saying he's not as great as his numbers would suggest and that he is benefitting greatly -- greatly -- from being on the richest team with possibly the greatest aerodynamicist in F1 history.
Then the same could be said for most great drivers... Not very many champions won with bad cars on poor second rate teams teams.

Vettel, Shumi, Prost and Sena either created or made the most of good situations unlike Massa, Webber, Rubans who did not! Remember the epic battles of Prost and Senna. Two good drivers with the best car fought like cats and dogs on and off the track and traded wins with the best car. Mark has what 9 wins and Seb has 37... WTF

Remember when Shumi got his first drive in Spa. He out drove that car... Seb did something similar in his first drive getting the car into the points, youngest driver to do so...

Honest question here, to you and others just for the sake of argument. Top three drivers in the past 25 years.

I'll start. Shummi, Vettel, Prost, and an honnerable mention to Senna? I think in the long run vettel will out performe shummi, maybe only because he had a goog mentor.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:16 PM   #1868
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Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
The 'Ring today is not the same as the circuit in 1957.

Modern comparisons don't hold water. Not only is the current circuit shorter, it has had it's features flattened and straightened. .
I was not clear in my writing. I was not disagreeing with you. The older circuits seemed to place a premium on speed not handling. That is why I put the link in for the circuit comparisons (the nurbergring is there as well).
Quote:
Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
A race prepared 306 GT16 is not a "mass produced consumer car".
No it is not. But under the rules in place at the time it was closer than a porche, aston or bmw m etc. But again I was not disagreeing just offering a comparison.

As I said. On the old style circuits the older cars would be much quicker. On the new/current style I would not be so sure.
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:11 AM   #1869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I don't see the relevance.

I'm not saying Vettel is bad driver. I am saying he's not as great as his numbers would suggest and that he is benefitting greatly -- greatly -- from being on the richest team with possibly the greatest aerodynamicist in F1 history.
He's not a "bad" driver. That's quite magnanimous of you.


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Old 11-09-2013, 05:16 AM   #1870
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Then the same could be said for most great drivers... Not very many champions won with bad cars on poor second rate teams teams.

They are in the best cars because they are the best drivers, if they were not at the top they would not have a top car nor would they last so long in a top team.
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:21 AM   #1871
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I don't see the relevance.

I'm not saying Vettel is bad driver. I am saying he's not as great as his numbers would suggest and that he is benefitting greatly -- greatly -- from being on the richest team with possibly the greatest aerodynamicist in F1 history.
Believe what you want, I can't wait for him to go to Ferrari, if that's the case, and do the same. Or maybe you want him to go to Marussia to prove himself..
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #1872
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Originally Posted by WildAnCrazymtl View Post
Then the same could be said for most great drivers... Not very many champions won with bad cars on poor second rate teams teams.
Of course. But one of the things which makes Schumacher great is that he did it for two teams. Right behind that was his ability to pull together a team of great men at Ferrari. And right up there in the mix is Ferrari's near-exclusive tire maker.

Vettel's not a passenger, but for me he doesn't belong in the conversation with the all-tine greats.
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #1873
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Believe what you want, I can't wait for him to go to Ferrari, if that's the case, and do the same. Or maybe you want him to go to Marussia to prove himself..
If he went to Ferrari he'd scuffle.
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Old 11-10-2013, 04:34 AM   #1874
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Who makes this stuff up??

9:25PM GMT 07 Nov 2013

"The 83-year-old Formula One supremo arrived at the High Court on Wednesday to appear at his trial for allegedly entering into a £27 million corrupt agreement.

But entering the building took a little longer than planned when Mr Ecclestone went into the glass revolving door and kept moving round until he came outside again.

Seemingly baffled by the door, he went to the glass side door and waited for someone to let him in.

Unfortunately a woman inside couldn't work out how to open the door for the 83-year-old.

It took a good few awkward moments in front of the journalists before the woman was able to finally let Mr Ecclestone inside. "
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Old 11-10-2013, 04:51 PM   #1875
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Bummer... No Kimi for the rat of the season. Guess Lotus should have paid. Elected to have back surgery instead.
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