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Old 03-25-2013, 05:33 PM   #511
wxwax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBunz View Post
Vettel did not hurt his team. Red Bull finished 1-2. It doesn't get any better than that.

Rosberg's situation was the same. His team would still finish 3-4 if he passed Hamilton.

So any arguments about constructor money are null and void.

Horner and Brawn both made bad calls. They deserve to have bad orders questioned. Both were trying to cover their ass from risky decisions they had made, at the expense of others.

Perhaps there is a place for team orders in the final races of the season.

Vettel and Rosberg had valid points of view and deserved more trust than they were afforded. They were discounted and the sport suffered because of it.

After the race, the top 4 drivers looked like they were attending a funeral.
For me, that's 20-20 hindsight.

At the time, both teams -- staffed by incredibly intelligent, successful, experienced men -- looked at the evidence and both made the identical call call. Don't push.

Tires were in danger of falling off a cliff. Fuel levels were low. It's early in the season and engines and transmissions need to be preserved.

Wiser men than you and I came to the same conclusion. Two drivers -- both of them less intelligent, less experienced and less aware of the big picture -- did what drivers do. They wanted to advance. Perfectly natural.

One driver was a professional and did what he was told, even though he wanted to push.

The other driver betrayed his teammate's trust, betrayed his team's trust, put his car and his season at risk and went for the win knowing his teammate was forced to fight with one arm tied behind his back.

That's greedy, dishonorable and acting like a spoiled child.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:39 PM   #512
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In a highly tuned organization (any org, not just a racing team) that is focused on the win (or success in general), the boss's word needs to be gold and followed to a T. If there is dissension in the ranks, either of two outcomes need to be followed through on.

Sanction to the dissenting party (IE: Vettel is disciplined)

OR

A Change in leadership needs to happen. (All leaders make mistakes, but the team still need to support those decisions. If the decision is so bad that the team members cannot possibly follow along, that leader needs to go).

This will not end well otherwise.
F1 is so riven with politics that they're all masters of papering over their differences just to stagger on to the next race. The tension on some teams must be unbelievable!

I don't usually advocate violence as a way to resolve disputes. But if Vettel knew that Mark Webber was going to punch him in the face and break his pretty little nose every time he fucked him, I think the golden boy would think twice about screwing Webber over.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:06 PM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post

I don't usually advocate violence as a way to resolve disputes. But if Vettel knew that Mark Webber was going to punch him in the face and break his pretty little nose every time he fucked him, I think the golden boy would think twice about screwing Webber over.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:09 PM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
F1 is so riven with politics that they're all masters of papering over their differences just to stagger on to the next race. The tension on some teams must be unbelievable!

I don't usually advocate violence as a way to resolve disputes. But if Vettel knew that Mark Webber was going to punch him in the face and break his pretty little nose every time he fucked him, I think the golden boy would think twice about screwing Webber over.


I'm up for that. Pay Per View!
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:30 PM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
The other driver betrayed his teammate's trust, betrayed his team's trust, put his car and his season at risk and went for the win knowing his teammate was forced to fight with one arm tied behind his back.

That's greedy, dishonorable and acting like a spoiled child.
That's a winner.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:03 PM   #516
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2 hyperthetical questions

1: 2nd last race of the season and Vettel needs to keep place to get the points to win the WDC. Webber is up his arse doing 0.3 a lap faster with 6 laps to go. They both get the order to hold formation.
What does Webber do?
Say "Remember Malaysia, Go fuck yourself!"
Or be a good boy.

2: Last race of the year. Webber has had storming year and IS 2 points adrift of SV(he could have had 2 more points from round 2). He is ahead of Vettel by a decent margin but running equal lap times. If Webber stays where he is level with Seb in the WDC.
What does Horner do? Let Vettel through or hold formation
What does Webber do if told to slow down?


I did say hyperthetical!!
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:26 PM   #517
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Seems to me it's entirely valid to ask whether or not Webber will feel compelled to help Vettel this season.

AFAIK, he's on a one-year deal. I would think that Red Bull are unlikely to replace him mid-season. No matter what, he probably won't be re-signed next season.

So really, he doesn't have a lot to lose by retaliating against Vettel, does he?
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:18 PM   #518
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The history books remember who won. Period. There is no category for the nicest 2nd place driver.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:10 PM   #519
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Sepang was one of those F1 "races" that keep me a casual fan.
Yeah Yeah Yeah I know it's a team sport, I know the drivers are supposed to "work for the team", I know there's crazy big money riding on those constructors points......

None of that makes me feel any less disgust at a faster car/ driver being ordered to finish behind a slower one. Having to watch it twice in the same "race" makes it 4 times worse.

The fact it happens everywhere (the first I was aware of was the "Let Brock Bye" in AMA Motocross) doesn't make it any easier to stomach. I'm a race fan with some technical interest, not the other way around.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:59 PM   #520
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None of that makes me feel any less disgust at a faster car/ driver being ordered to finish behind a slower one. Having to watch it twice in the same "race" makes it 4 times worse.
Why do you assume that Vettel and Rosberg were faster? All 4 cars were supposed be be dialed down. One cheated.

When the TV played Vettel's radio saying Webber was slow, Webber was actually lapping faster than Vettel.

If both Red Bulls had been allowed to race full out, I see no reason why Webber wouldn't have maintained his edge.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:12 PM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingby View Post
In a highly tuned organization (any org, not just a racing team) that is focused on the win (or success in general), the boss's word needs to be gold and followed to a T. If there is dissension in the ranks, either of two outcomes need to be followed through on.

Sanction to the dissenting party (IE: Vettel is disciplined)

OR

A Change in leadership needs to happen. (All leaders make mistakes, but the team still need to support those decisions. If the decision is so bad that the team members cannot possibly follow along, that leader needs to go).

This will not end well otherwise.
This is so true in the real world, out of the public eye the boss can get away with shit because his mistakes are not public record. I am not sure this is true in the fantasy world of F1. IMHO Honers shortcomming lead to a bad situation that put a great young driver in a bad spot forcing him to make a tough decision for the benifit of RBR. Everyone knows Marco is in charge!
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:22 PM   #522
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Why do you assume that Vettel and Rosberg were faster?
'Cuz I don't like Webber very much and I absolutely detest Hamilton.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:22 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post

At the time, both teams -- staffed by incredibly intelligent, successful, experienced men -- looked at the evidence and both made the identical call call. Don't push.

Wiser men than you and I came to the same conclusion. Two drivers -- both of them less intelligent, less experienced and less aware of the big picture -- .


Objection your Honor! The persecuter is assuming facts not entred into evidence!
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:29 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I don't usually advocate violence as a way to resolve disputes. But if Vettel knew that Mark Webber was going to punch him in the face and break his pretty little nose every time he fucked him, I think the golden boy would think twice about screwing Webber over.
What makes you so sure golden boy would not f$$k Webber up!

Put me down for $100 on Vettel
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:33 PM   #525
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If both...... had been allowed to race full out...
That's what bugs me, the "if" part.
F1, it is what it is, I accept that. Team orders happen at all levels of professional motorsport. I can't say I like the concept, but it's not enough to keep me from watching.
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