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Old 03-26-2013, 08:38 PM   #571
overlandr
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Go to

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/2...ix-lap-charts/

On the second chart, untick all except the two protagonists.

Observe the gap between them from laps 35 to 42 increasing from 2.69 to 5.73 seconds. Clearly, vettel was slower than Webber in these 7 laps. This must have been weighing heavily on Vettel prior to the start of his move immediately prior to Webber's pit stop. Anyone have data on how long the pit stop took?

The other consideration is how many laps in this race Webber was in the lead for prior to L45 - substantially more than Vettel.

overlandr screwed with this post 03-26-2013 at 08:43 PM
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:45 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by overlandr View Post
Go to

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/2...ix-lap-charts/

On the second chart, untick all except the two protagonists.

Observe the gap between them from laps 35 to 42 increasing from 2.69 to 5.73 seconds. Clearly, vettel was slower than Webber in these 7 laps. This must have been weighing heavily on Vettel prior to the start of his move immediately prior to Webber's pit stop. Anyone have data on how long the pit stop took?

The other consideration is how many laps in this race Webber was in the lead for prior to L45 - substantially more than Vettel.
The entire list is here. Overall, Webber had quicker pit stops than did Vettel. Here's the list, only down to 4th stop for the Red Bulls.

Driver / Team / Pit / stop time / Gap / On lap
1 Mark Webber Red Bull 20.736 19
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 20.757 0.021 42
3 Mark Webber Red Bull 20.767 0.031 43
4 Mark Webber Red Bull 20.883 0.147 31
5 Sergio Perez McLaren 20.894 0.158 22
6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 20.970 0.234 47
7 Mark Webber Red Bull 21.010 0.274 7
8 Jenson Button McLaren 21.028 0.292 21
9 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 21.079 0.343 22
10 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 21.135 0.399 5
11 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 21.202 0.466 42
12 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 21.271 0.535 41
13 Sergio Perez McLaren 21.338 0.602 33
14 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 21.339 0.603 22
15 Sergio Perez McLaren 21.366 0.630 54
16 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 21.465 0.729 21
17 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 21.482 0.746 32
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:47 PM   #573
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ps I said earlier the race was 65 laps. Dyslexia. It was 56.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:36 PM   #574
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Demote Vettel

Occurs to me Red Bull could make a point by demoting Vettel to a Toro Rosso in China.

Ricciardo or Vergne could have his way with Hungry Heidi.

Vettel would get to show whether he really is bigger than the team.

And we get to watch - it's win-win!

(Sad thing is - or happy if you're a fan: given some luck, Vettel might still lead home all three other BullToros.)
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:29 AM   #575
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Team ordered finishes are a bad idea, not just in hindsight but in foresight. Like herpes, they just won't go away.

Horner made a very bad call. This is the primary issue. Now his team is stuck with the unintended consequences. This is as it should be.

Vettel's decision is secondary. The consequences for him should reflect that.

Ross Brawn is far worse. His history with team ordered finishes is epic.

Ecclestone needs to back up his barking about this, with a bite.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:42 AM   #576
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I believe the commentators said that in his career, Ross Brawn has a combined 17 Driver's and Constructors titles.

Christian Horner has at least 6 driver's and constructors titles.

That's 23 titles between them. I hope I'm not being too bold when I suggest that it's possible that these men know what they're doing.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:59 AM   #577
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Brawn gives a thorough explanation for his team orders. Bottom line, they short fueled both cars to make them lighter and help their pace. It got them 3rd and 4th, which is massive. But it meant they couldn't play games at the end.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106384
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:54 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
Brawn gives a thorough explanation for his team orders. Bottom line, they short fueled both cars to make them lighter and help their pace. It got them 3rd and 4th, which is massive. But it meant they couldn't play games at the end.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106384
F1 is all about strategy. Not just race strategy, but season strategy. With the speed things happen behind the wheel the driver has no time to think strategically during the race. That is why there is a trailer full of people who are well paid to do the data analysis and make the strategic decisions.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:49 AM   #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBunz View Post
Team ordered finishes are a bad idea, not just in hindsight but in foresight. Like herpes, they just won't go away.

Horner made a very bad call. This is the primary issue. Now his team is stuck with the unintended consequences. This is as it should be.

Vettel's decision is secondary. The consequences for him should reflect that.

Ross Brawn is far worse. His history with team ordered finishes is epic.

Ecclestone needs to back up his barking about this, with a bite.

Team orders are a reality of the sport today.

How was Horners call a bad one? At the time Webber was in front and quicker with better tires. They were way ahead of the Mercs. So he could safely assume that if both drivers dialed it down there would be no change in positions and the engines could get some extra hours for the future.

Vettel basically said fuck you to his boss! I agree, the consequences should reflect that!
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:46 AM   #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBunz View Post
Team ordered finishes are a bad idea, not just in hindsight but in foresight. Like herpes, they just won't go away.

Horner made a very bad call. This is the primary issue. Now his team is stuck with the unintended consequences. This is as it should be.

Vettel's decision is secondary. The consequences for him should reflect that.

Ross Brawn is far worse. His history with team ordered finishes is epic.

Ecclestone needs to back up his barking about this, with a bite.
You are basing your opinion of Horner's call on how you think the rule book should be and not on how the rules are in reality. In reality team orders are OK by the rules. In reality teams are chasing constructor's points, because that's where the money is. In reality the team boss's decisions were in the best interest of the team goal ($$$... and don't kid yourself, its all about $$$. If some Glory and personal goals come along with the package, all the better). In reality team orders are a strategy to achieve this.

The teams were doing exactly what they needed to do. Vettel decided to forgo this decision and raced for his own personal goal. He decided his own goal was more important than the team goal (and then pussied out in admitting in later). That's all there is to it. What consequences come from that are up to team management, what priorities the team place on various goals moving forward and how they think the path to the team's goals can be achieved under current circumstances.

Whether we like it or not the teams are all about $$$ and will use the rules to there fullest extent to get there. If you don't like the rules (or the quality of racing resulting from the rules) fine, but that is a different argument.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:13 AM   #581
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You are basing your opinion of Horner's call on how you think the rule book should be and not on how the rules are in reality. In reality team orders are OK by the rules. In reality teams are chasing constructor's points, because that's where the money is. In reality the team boss's decisions were in the best interest of the team goal ($$$... and don't kid yourself, its all about $$$. If some Glory and personal goals come along with the package, all the better). In reality team orders are a strategy to achieve this.

The teams were doing exactly what they needed to do. Vettel decided to forgo this decision and raced for his own personal goal. He decided his own goal was more important than the team goal (and then pussied out in admitting in later). That's all there is to it. What consequences come from that are up to team management, what priorities the team place on various goals moving forward and how they think the path to the team's goals can be achieved under current circumstances.

Whether we like it or not the teams are all about $$$ and will use the rules to there fullest extent to get there. If you don't like the rules (or the quality of racing resulting from the rules) fine, but that is a different argument.
Fielding a competitive F1 team cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year. That is why the constructor's title money is so important. The team principles are making decisions that are WAY above the drivers' pay grade.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:02 AM   #582
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Team orders are a reality of the sport today.

How was Horners call a bad one? At the time Webber was in front and quicker with better tires. They were way ahead of the Mercs. So he could safely assume that if both drivers dialed it down there would be no change in positions and the engines could get some extra hours for the future.

Vettel basically said fuck you to his boss! I agree, the consequences should reflect that!
Yup. Ya wonder if Webber is going to retaliate at some point. The team favors Vettel, and yet he still defies their orders. Wouldn't be surprised if Webber accidentally punts him off the track later this season. Vettel is obviously a great driver, but seems to care only about himself and not the team... sorta sounds like another German driver from a few years back.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:58 AM   #583
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Finally, the last few posts have seen the real truth of the situation. Vettel did more of a disservice to the team then he did to Mark Webber.

Webber had newer tires and had good pace in the last stint. Had he not followed the team orders to turn everything down and coast home, I'm sure he would have been able to hold off Vettel who was lapping slower and was on options that were several laps older. The options were only lasting 11-13 laps and Mark was on the harder of the two choices.

Whether Vettel likes it or not, he is racing for a team and when the team boss says turn your engine down and hold position, it is probably in your best interest to do so. The team would have known the lap times both were running and what tire condition both drivers had. Not only that, they would also have access to far far more data that we as a viewing public did not have access to. We do not know if the RB team were seeing hydralic or electrical or temperature issues on the cars prompting them to turn the power down and get the cars home. What we do know is that the team principal made the call to bring the cars home in the order they were running and one of the drivers decided that was not good enough.

As I see it, although it was unfair to Mark, I believe the bigger issue is between the team principal and Vettel. Clearly Horner does not have control over Vettel and clearly Vettel can do whatever he wants with relative impunity. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out over the course of the season.

I don't see Mark being an ass about it. He is a team player and will race on. I guess time will tell!
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:10 AM   #584
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The fraud of F1 -
A contest between money managers is being disguised and sold as a contest between cars and drivers.

Brawn and Horner put their drivers in a situation where they were not supposed to fight for a win. They were willing to settle for less than a win.
They screwed up.

All or nothing, win it or bin it, is dead.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:35 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBunz View Post
The fraud of F1 -
A contest between money managers is being disguised and sold as a contest between cars and drivers.

Brawn and Horner put their drivers in a situation where they were not supposed to fight for a win. They were willing to settle for less than a win.
They screwed up.

All or nothing, win it or bin it, is dead.
Neither Mercedes was ever going to catch the Red Bulls. I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

Jenson Button sums it up nicely, delineating the difference between personal ambition and the importance of obeying your team.

Quote:
"I find team orders difficult anyway but to disregard a team order is something different. I am not a fan of giving a driver preferential treatment, but the issue here is that Vettel did not want team orders."
To me, this is a natural outcome of Red Bull treating Vettel like a spoiled child all these years. He has always been allowed to do what he pleases and he has ignored team orders in the past without any consequences.

He's probably wondering what all the fuss is about.
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