ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Orange Crush
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-30-2012, 03:02 AM   #16
ata
expat in the jungle
 
ata's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Bilbao, close to the fu****ng Guggenheim
Oddometer: 2,237
just like twin sisters
both are the same with different characters

i prefer my SE carb character than my old inyected 990 S
__________________
Youth is wasted on the young

Need some help<<<<<<>>>>>>> wet wanderings
ata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 03:04 AM   #17
genghis9021
Arak Connoisseur
 
genghis9021's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand & NORCAL
Oddometer: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuctTape View Post
It also depends on where you live or plan on riding.

There are some parts of the world that the quality of fuel isn't the greatest and a carbed vehicle would survive where an EFI would be dead in no time.
Funny. That seems almost exactly the opposite of what I'd expect. FI is MORE tolerant, not less of crappy, low-octane fuel. Or, it certainly can be.

You won't find anti-knock sensors in a carb'd bike. The only re-course is retarding the ignition ALL the time. The number of FI bikes wandering about in central Asia without issue is quite high. And that gas is often poured from a bucket into your tank or comes from a tank with silly levels of internal condensation.

I ride carbs but . . . FI everytime. And for the tinkerer . . . just check out Motorcycle Consumer News' excellent multi-part series on tweaking the FI on a KTM SuperDuke. Tons of fun AND satisfaction.
__________________
2011 Husky TE 630 2011 Husaberg FE 570S
2006 KTM 950 'S' ADV 2005 Suzuki DRZ 400 SM
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." 4 bikes in 3 countries.

Orange, it's the new black Tour.
genghis9021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 08:00 AM   #18
GoNOW
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Oddometer: 1,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuctTape View Post
It also depends on where you live or plan on riding.

There are some parts of the world that the quality of fuel isn't the greatest and a carbed vehicle would survive where an EFI would be dead in no time.
It's the other way around. The EFI system will compensate for poor fuel. Carbs can't do that.
GoNOW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 09:14 AM   #19
hooliken
Awesome is a flavor
 
hooliken's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Smithfield, VA
Oddometer: 2,742
Because you can usually fix a carb trail side vs hitting your FI with a rock and hoping it works.
__________________
"People in this country sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell
2007 950R Super Enduro
2005 450EXC
hooliken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 09:20 AM   #20
Misery Goat
Positating the negative
 
Misery Goat's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: Paradise Valley, AZ
Oddometer: 74,702
Many of us never left.
__________________
"So what you gonna do when the novelty is gone.."-- Joy Division

Same as it ever was


My Wanderlust
Misery Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 09:25 AM   #21
sakurama
on an endless build
 
sakurama's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: NYC & PDX
Oddometer: 1,395
There's a lot of good reasons for both but for those that want a simpler system carbs are proven. On my bike I put a 990SMR engine into my 950 and then put FCR's on it. We made a new set of velocity stacks, a complete TPS solution and are now working to solve and install a complete choke so they're plug and play. We dyno'd the bike and got pretty fantastic torque gains - even more torque than a modern FI 990 and there's the added benefit that the carbs are smoother than the stock FI.

Here's a dyno chart. My FCR'd 990 is green, Flanny's 950 with FCR's is blue and Gino's 990R (fuel injected) with pipes and a map is the red. Makes a very good case for converting to FCR's.


sakurama screwed with this post 11-30-2012 at 10:22 AM
sakurama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:20 AM   #22
SFKLR
Noob. Again.
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Benicia, CA
Oddometer: 1,010
Good lord, Gregor, those torque numbers are ridiculous! Your bike will be a Flanny-flogger for sure.

To the original poster, I don't have tons of experience on FI bikes (maybe 4-5?), but they all seemed to have a tiny throttle lag that the carb'd bikes didn't. I noticed it in a car too. My old 65 mustang would jump like a horse to a whip. Cars with FI engines seem to go "What? Faster? OK!" Could be just the way mine were tuned, but my experience has always been the source of my preference for carbs. The mileage and low maintenance of FI are attractive, but meh. I'd rather it go when I say go.
SFKLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:36 AM   #23
AdvGa
Beastly Adventurer
 
AdvGa's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Atlanta Metro
Oddometer: 1,320
Keep in mind, the reason Street Bike manufacturers HAD to go to Fuel Injection, was to comply with the EURO3 Emissions Standards established in 2007.

So it is easier to make a FI Map for the Specs of each Country the Bike is to be shipped. Not necessarily implemented due to its superiority over Carbed bikes.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/313/15...-Examined.aspx
AdvGa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:44 AM   #24
wpbarlow
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: Central NJ
Oddometer: 9,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
...Here's a dyno chart. My FCR'd 990 is green, Flanny's 950 with FCR's is blue and Gino's 990R (fuel injected) with pipes and a map is the red. Makes a very good case for converting to FCR's....
Throw 1/4 the time and money at the FI bike as you did to yours and get back to us


Custom work is almost always impressive and with better results compared to a design point that has to meet the letter of the law. Props to those with thge skills to do it and/or want to. I have carb and FI bikes and they have been fine for my purposes. I can't say that I ever think "geez, these bikes are dangerously underpowered".


But I am interested in the 1190
wpbarlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 11:51 AM   #25
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,586
Let me tell you why I would go back to a carburated 9XX? . . .

Because I get the DT's if I leave it in the garage too long . . .

__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 12:12 PM   #26
Johnf3
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: West Texas
Oddometer: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoNOW View Post
It's the other way around. The EFI system will compensate for poor fuel. Carbs can't do that.
It won't compensate for it when the FI fuel filters inside the tank plug up INSTANTLY from bad fuel. Been there, done that with my buddy's 990 in the middle of nowhere in Big Bend. On my 950 I just drained my tanks and float bowls. Very straightforward. It took us three hours to get his filters out and clean enough to get us back to civilization,then we had to superglue orings together among other issues. What a nightmare.

I appreciate FI and would own a later 990 in a heartbeat, but the fuel filter set up on the 990 is not the best set up for an Adventure bike.
__________________
'06 950 Adventure S
'10 Husaberg FX 450
'01 KTM 520exc
Johnf3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 02:00 PM   #27
men8ifr
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Midlands UK
Oddometer: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by genghis9021 View Post

You won't find anti-knock sensors in a carb'd bike. The only re-course is retarding the ignition ALL the time. The number of FI bikes wandering about in central Asia without issue is quite high. And that gas is often poured from a bucket into your tank or comes from a tank with silly levels of internal condensation.
No reason why carb'd bikes couldn't have knock control and I'm sure some do - the ignition retard is completely separate from the fuelling but neither the 950 or 990 have any form of knock control though the low octane wire means the LC8 runs reasonable levels of ignition on decent fuel.

I would suspect the Asian FI bikes are much better designed to cope with fuel that has particles/residue/water/ethanol and god knows what else in it so I'm sure it can be done but for reliability hundreds of miles from anywhere a carb'd LC8 will be less likely to have problems (small holes in the injector are prone to blocking and so is the filter in the tank) and also easier to fix - poke something through the jets/blow through then to clear them though TBH the main jet never blocks (it is so big) and you can continue riding with blocked pilot jets no problem (I have done this).

Finally the Carb'd bikes get better fuel economy - simply I believe because they are tuned to run lean at motorway speeds where-as the FI bikes have to run Lambda 1 so use more fuel - my 950 standard jetting/airbox/cand the lot gets 50-55mpg with 180-200 miles before the reserve light even - I think most 990's are running dry before I get reserve.

Forgte to say loved Chaing Mai when I was there - wished I had a bike there, is dancing still illegal? - some nice rock cafe's as i remember as well
men8ifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 05:00 PM   #28
DuctTape
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Kansas
Oddometer: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by genghis9021 View Post
Funny. That seems almost exactly the opposite of what I'd expect. FI is MORE tolerant, not less of crappy, low-octane fuel. Or, it certainly can be.

You won't find anti-knock sensors in a carb'd bike. The only re-course is retarding the ignition ALL the time. The number of FI bikes wandering about in central Asia without issue is quite high. And that gas is often poured from a bucket into your tank or comes from a tank with silly levels of internal condensation.

I ride carbs but . . . FI everytime. And for the tinkerer . . . just check out Motorcycle Consumer News' excellent multi-part series on tweaking the FI on a KTM SuperDuke. Tons of fun AND satisfaction.

Yup, what men8ifr wrote .

I was thinking in terms of dirt, water and other impurities like cow dung, bugs, dirt, urine, etc. LOL, It's why my 72 FJ40 is the love of my life. I can drain the tank, clean the fuel filters, rebuild and re-jet the carb and set the timing all on the trail and continue on my merry way. But then again, I still own things like a timing light, dwell meter, points, condensers and jets........
__________________
2013 KTM 690 (Thanks FLHRCI Buyer! )
2011 990 Adventure Dakar (Thank you Honey!)
2010 Aprilia RSV4 Factory
2010 Ducati 1198S
DuctTape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:06 PM   #29
GoNOW
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Oddometer: 1,451
I work in a motorcycle shop. When a bike comes in that has been sitting for 2 years and won't start, we drain and flush the fuel tank, often replace the pepcock and any fuel lines, rebuild the carbs, check replace the fuel pump, and install a new battery. If this is a 4 cylinder bike, the owner is in it around $900 for the work. This is often what is required to get the bike to run again.

On an EFI bike, we install a new battery and push the start button and it fires right up. Sure we suggest flushing out the old gas, but that is it 90% of the time.

To me, EFI V carbs is like CDI V points. Sure you can fix points on the trail, but points must have maintenance to keep working. CDI don't require any maintenance at all, but can't be fixed on the trail.

I know a guy who won't ride a water cool bike out in the desert. One puncture in the radiator and you are walking home, he says.

Bikes that come in the shop with EFI problems are very, very few. The last one came in because they somehow got a large amount of water in the fuel, for a long time. The EFI system sorted it all out, but the fuel pump rusted over time and locked up. If that didn't happen, the owner would have never knew he had a good 1/2 gallon of water in the fuel.

The KTM 990 does have an aggressive fuel filtration system. Maybe too much. It will clog filters on poor fuel or just over time. But then, this type of bike gets more dirt action, for more miles, then most others. So maybe having extra fine fuel filters is a good thing.

I do own a 2004 950 with carbs. But I spent a lot of time in the early days getting the carb venting right. Rejetting it from factory so it would run right. Then designing my own fuel pump system to replace the bad factory one. The bike runs sweet now and I don't have any carb issues. (The issues with the carbs are in the how-2 now and you don't have to do all the messing around I did)

If I owned an EFI 990, then I would have a fuel pump filter kit sitting on the shelf and check/replace it every 20k to be on the safe side.
GoNOW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:32 PM   #30
corndog67
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Santa Maria, CA
Oddometer: 1,281
I notice a lot of old guys swear that their carbs work better than Injection. They generally don't. I've messed with carbs for most of my life. Old Kawasaki triples, pull the carbs, pilots, move the needles, float levels, mains, air screws, everything. And I got them to run right, sometimes it took quite a bit of trial and error. Same with dirt bikes. Been riding those since 1970.

Remember when electronic ignitions came around, and became popular? I was one of those guys that said, "Give me points, if that ignition fails out on the road, you can't fix it." Well, here it is, 35 or 40 years later, and I've had maybe 1 pickup coil go bad, in all that time. Like GoNow says, very, very few bikes with FI come into his shop with actual Injection issues. And injection deals with shitty gas pretty readily. Without messing with anything.

It's just another case of people wanting to stay in the same place, not move ahead with technology. I work with an old guy that will not use a digital micrometer, because "They don't have the feel" of a standard micrometer. But my Mitutoyo Digital Mics are accurate to 50 millionths of an inch. I just don't get the resistance to moving forward by some people.

Fuel Injection is the tits. And everyone knows, Tits Are Good.
corndog67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 04:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014