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Old 11-29-2012, 03:09 PM   #31
FatChance
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Yup, you are right. It would be so much better if the Sierra Club closed off public access to this land for their chosen group instead of the guys you hate who want to close off the same land for their own chosen group. You'll just be shut out of the Moab region for different reasons but the results will be the same. The trees are obscuring your forest.

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Old 11-29-2012, 03:11 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by doc_ricketts View Post
I think you have to believe that 'wisdom' will prevail in the end. The hue and cry of the Sierra Club crowd or the 4x4 crowd will mean nothing unless BLM and Forest Service, backed by your hated leader in the White House realize that the central Utah region is a major recreational resource that needs to be preserved in its current state so that all may enjoy it fully. I think Herbert is pandering to his rich friends and that the Sierra club/SUWA is concerned about 4x4 damage, but really about the Sagebrush Revolution being renewed by Herbert. I think Herbert though is just as attentive to the 4x4ers as he is to his rich friends and the takeover stand is just show. Even if it is not, Washington is not going to let him do it.

I know you have a valid point, but as I said in the above post, we are not talking about the relationship between the Sierra Club/SUWA/OIA or whoever and the Utah Government. The only issue is the current poposal to create a National Monument.

We want to make people aware there is a possibility this will happen and give them 2 very simple avenues of recourse:
If you do not want a 2.4 million acre National Monument in SE Utah send a letter to President Obama.

If you do not like that popular retailers backed this proposal sign the petition boycotting them and we will send a letter on your behalf telling them we do not agree with their position, asking them to withdraw.


The debate about how all this came about is doing nothing but muddying the water for people. After reading 3-4 posts like the above no one can tell what is going on and they loose interest, yet we still have a National Monument proposal that needs unity and a solid opposition.

All we are concerned about is stoping the National Monument Designation, the rest is fluff.



Please start a new thread if anyone wants to debate the political direction of the current adminstration in Utah and how this is the outcome of such actions.
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COXR650L screwed with this post 11-29-2012 at 03:18 PM
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:30 PM   #33
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Moab Land Grab-Please Help!

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Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
Please start a new thread if anyone wants to debate the political direction of the current adminstration in Utah and how this is the outcome of such actions.
Therein lies your problem. Both the political left and the political right want to appropriate the same land for their own reasons and their own constituents. Focusing on one only opens the door for the other. IMHO, of course...


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Old 11-29-2012, 03:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
We want to make people aware there is a possibility this will happen and give them 2 very simple avenues of recourse:
If you do not want a 2.4 million acre National Monument in SE Utah send a letter to President Obama.

If you do not like that popular retailers backed this proposal sign the petition boycotting them and we will send a letter on your behalf telling them we do not agree with their position, asking them to withdraw.



I thought that was the focus of my statements. Do everything possible including:
1. alliance with the 4x4 groups
2. boycotting retailers,
3. sending email to Obama and Huntsman
4. also sending email to Gov. Herbert that you think his action as well as the SUWA action is beneath the spirit of Utah backcountry
Anyway, you won't hear any more from me on the subject.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by doc_ricketts View Post
I thought that was the focus of my statements. Do everything possible including:
1. alliance with the 4x4 groups
2. boycotting retailers,
3. sending email to Obama and Huntsman
4. also sending email to Gov. Herbert that you think his action as well as the SUWA action is beneath the spirit of Utah backcountry
Anyway, you won't hear any more from me on the subject.

I think what I said was misconstrued, so I will apologize to DOC and Fat Chance upfront.

I did not want this to become a thread with bickering back and forth about the political power plays that caused this. Before long we will have 2 pages of banter and any newcomers will loose interest very quickly and nothing will get done.

It seemed that was the direction this was going despite the fact I think everyone who posted feels a 2.4 million acres national monument is not the right answer.


If someone says "I support the national monument because of XYZ", let hear your argument. But lets not go back and forth between ourselves about how Herbert did this, Obama wont do anything about this, etc, etc when we all agree we don't want the Natl Monument in SE Utah?

So once again sorry Doc and Fat Chance, I think I may have turned into a thread nazi so I will back off! SOrry again
Ben
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COXR650L screwed with this post 11-29-2012 at 05:00 PM
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:25 PM   #36
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Fist off thank you to everyone that is helping out!!!!

Next:

Show me a thread on a 4x4 website that supports the creation of the proposed Greater Canyon Lands National Monument ??


Then:
Herbert's stance is irrelevant, as is the environmentalists, as far as we are concerned. This is only about one issue, the creation of a National Monument consisting of 2.4 million acres of land in SE Utah. That is the only thing on the table for us and that is what we are worried about. There is a real possibility that we can loose a large percentage of land in SE Utah under a Ntl Monument Designation.


We are not endorsing any actions by the State of Utah to regain control of federal land, or any actions by environmentalists that want to fight those measures.


What we are saying is a National Monument Designation is not appropriate; it is outside the scope of what the Antiquities Act was created for, it will have a negative impact (ie create less recreational opportunities) for all current users of the land, and seeks to bypasses the input from those that use and live in the land.


We are not denying there should be a discussion on the intentions of the State of Utah, but a National Monument Proposal sitting on President Obama's desk is not going to accomplish anything. At this point President Obama will either sign it into law, or he wont. We are trying to sway the decision so it does not become a National Monumet, it’s that simple.



We keep having this come up, people saying they don’t support a National Monument Designation in SE Utah, yet then argue here about why it is happening........
The 4x4 crowd aren't for a monument. They are against the Herbert land grab attempt, which he signed into law by the way. Pirate4x4
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:43 AM   #37
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Damn these intolerant bastards! When is enough..enough!!
At what point in time will they say, "We've got enough land set aside, protected from the OHV crowd"
Sadly, the greenies, the tree huggers, the ignorant, will never have these words pass their lips.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:00 PM   #38
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The environmental groups are not interested in any type of compromise on areas they have targeted for their "preservation" program. They may be defeated on a given issue, or compromise for the short term to gain something. However they will always push for a preservationist position. To sit down and work with the environmental groups to "lessen the impact" of any motorized use or industrial use of the land will only delay land being removed from use by all groups that do not have the approval of the environmental side.
Some of you may be saying "wow, these statements are very pessimistic". That is correct, they are. After all, the Sierra Club did not consult with any motorized, or MTB user groups before drafting their request for the NM. Working with the environmental side may be inevitable, however we will lose some terrain each and every time.
Living it Steamboat I have watched, and even been involved in the battle between the backcountry skiers, and the snowmobilers. This has been going on since before I was here (32+ years) Many times the forest service facilitated bringing motorized, and non-motorized users to the table to discuss what each side would accept for a compromise. Each time the motorized group gave up terrain to appease the non-motorized users in 1 area to keep another, only to be dragged back to the table a few years later to battle for they area they had previous won. I have many stories on the dramatics used by the environmental side, and how they are somewhat just interested in their own ability to use terrain for themselves.
Somehow the conservationist values of the 20th century have somewhat changed to the a preservation agenda. I'm all for public land being used by all sides in a responsible way. After all our president preaches "tolerance" (even if its to only farther a certain agenda). I believe education is the responsible use is a good way to go. Teaching local businesses by economical impact on who actually is using the areas, and how much "economy" they provide is a good thing as well.
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:37 AM   #39
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Why are motorized groups always on the defensive? Why aren't there groups working to have more areas opened instead of just battling to keep the current ones from being closed? You know the old saying...."the best defense is a good offense".
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:51 AM   #40
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Why are motorized groups always on the defensive? Why aren't there groups working to have more areas opened instead of just battling to keep the current ones from being closed? You know the old saying...."the best defense is a good offense".
I agree.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:37 PM   #41
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I think you have to believe that 'wisdom' will prevail in the end.
Believing in this assumption is the first step in the closure of this area to responsible vehicular use.

I saw it happen in the early '80's with the city of Boulder, CO's unilateral, knee-jerk closure of all city-owned mountain trails to ATB's.

The ongoing, illegal USFS closure of Corona Pass/Boulder Pass Wagon Road west of Boulder is another excellent example of the danger of trusting the powers-that-be to do right thing.

I think simply believing it'll get done because it's proper to do so is like believing a gun isn't loaded: the price is too high if you're proven wrong, and the results are way too hard to put right afterwards.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:39 PM   #42
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I think people can see that unless their voices can be heard we are fighting a loosing battle.


Take just a moment and send a letter to Obama and sign the petition (it takes 2min max). If you have already, email it to your riding buddies and post it on Facebook, etc. The more opposition the less likely they will be to keep pushing stuff like this through and they will recognize there is a large contegent of people who are vocal and notice what is going on.


Thanks for the support
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:10 AM   #43
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Linked to Moto Boulder, Boulder County Trail riders and forwdared to CO- Dirt riders Meetup...
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:49 AM   #44
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Linked to Moto Boulder, Boulder County Trail riders and forwdared to CO- Dirt riders Meetup...
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:49 PM   #45
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I live in Alabama, but have been going to Moab since 1981 and have seen how everything has changed toward keeping motorized recreation out. I now feel ostracized and looked down upon when traveling on my motorcycle there. This has happened at Tellico Plains and the National Forests here, too. We've given up areas with the promise others would remain open only to have those areas taken away, too. I have sent this thread to all my friends in the SE to get them to get involved because they go there, too. It is a national issue which very few know about. Our problem is being a minority who doesn't get help from the government, only getting run over.
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