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Old 12-12-2012, 08:56 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
+1

We all get protecting the land, but in the process PUBLIC LAND is being taken away from a large percentage of responsible users. It is not fair that only select users get to enjoy and use public land. By definition this land belongs to all of us, yet to frequently a very select few end up with unlimited access, while excluding most others.
And oddly, I'll bet a nickel that many of the people who feel they support a very noble cause of total, absolute protection of the land never even go out there to any serious degree. I've shot-the-bull with some of these folks over the years on some of my trips out west, and it seems like some of them almost suggest that no human should even be in many of these areas. It's like some kind of weird view of what the earth is and how we should be relating to it.

I'm with Nailhead. I love the outdoors and therefore the earth. Abbey and others were a strong influence on some of my concepts about the earth too, but one should never be too quick to drink another man's Kool-Aid...at least all of it. I've backpacked a lot of Utah in addition to being an off roader. While I don't want a bunch of it turned into a parking lot for a Walmart, you have to use some reason and logic. It's at that point where many of these enviro groups have such a biased, dogmatic concept and approach that mimics Islamic fanaticism. It's a shame, but for many of these groups there is no pragmatism or compromise. We as off roaders will always be at a disadvantage to many of these zealots, because we can't muster that kind of illogical dedication. But of course, it doesn't mean we should roll over.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:24 AM   #92
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And oddly, I'll bet a nickel that many of the people who feel they support a very noble cause of total, absolute protection of the land never even go out there to any serious degree. I've shot-the-bull with some of these folks over the years on some of my trips out west, and it seems like some of them almost suggest that no human should even be in many of these areas. It's like some kind of weird view of what the earth is and how we should be relating to it.
Right on! Many of the tourists (and supporters of SUWA) are from back east and have NO concept of what Wilderness means. Many of them have a romantic conception of what Wilderness is, but thats about as far as it goes. I mean, to the uninformed, Wilderness sounds great. Problem is, that essentially means no one can even see the land it if it extends further than you you can reasonbably carry water....let aone experience it.

I have been anti-SUWA, anti-Sierra Club, anti- Wilderness Society for a LONG time. They, via their desires, don't want us to see the land.

Remember in Desert Solitaire how Abbey was going on about the tourists to Arches and how they essentially never even get out of their cars? It was something like, "Get out of your cars and walk! Better yet, crawl! Maybe, just maybe, THEN you'll see something!" He was right on....way back then!!!

I, like alot of you guys, maybe all of ya, LOVE the desert. To me, that means I not only want to see it, I want to spend time in it and experience it...in a responsible fashion and I 100% agree that there are a number of ways to do this.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:27 AM   #93
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Oh, and one other thing: why does "motorized use" mean "abuse" to so many? Yes, I realize those who have truly abused the resource have fouled the well for the responsible, but aren't those who are doing the prejudging in this matter supposed to be-- indeed, pride themselves in being-- objective and reasoned?

I don't get it.

I keep thinking I should plan my own version of Abbey's canoe trip down Glen Canyon, get out there, and run the Chicken Corners/Lockhart Basin road before the option to do so is lost.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:34 PM   #94
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Oh, and one other thing: why does "motorized use" mean "abuse" to so many? Yes, I realize those who have truly abused the resource have fouled the well for the responsible, but aren't those who are doing the prejudging in this matter supposed to be-- indeed, pride themselves in being-- objective and reasoned?

I don't get it.

I keep thinking I should plan my own version of Abbey's canoe trip down Glen Canyon, get out there, and run the Chicken Corners/Lockhart Basin road before the option to do so is lost.
Suitable analogy, Nail.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:36 AM   #95
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Sucks being pigeon-holed into a certain category just because we happen to pursue certain activities deemed reckless/inappropriate by others with agendas. Dirt biking is just one pursuit for me, in addition to hunting, fishing, cycling, camping/hiking. I donate to organizations with opposing agendas (i.e. Trout Unlimited, IMBA) and just have to take a moderate stance on a lot of issues. Compromise, yes ... but shut out, NO.

The real crux of the problem is too many people competing for fewer recreational opportunities, and enough idiots across all user groups who are out there ruining it for everybody, either on purpose or through ignorance. Unfortunately the ones with the money are the ones who are paid most attention to.

My other $.02 is that the advent/explosion in quads/UTVs hasn't helped the motorized cause...I think because there is a certain public perception/stereotype that we unfortunately get lumped into by association.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:57 AM   #96
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Sucks being pigeon-holed into a certain category just because we happen to pursue certain activities deemed reckless/inappropriate by others with agendas. Dirt biking is just one pursuit for me, in addition to hunting, fishing, cycling, camping/hiking. I donate to organizations with opposing agendas (i.e. Trout Unlimited, IMBA) and just have to take a moderate stance on a lot of issues. Compromise, yes ... but shut out, NO.

The real crux of the problem is too many people competing for fewer recreational opportunities, and enough idiots across all user groups who are out there ruining it for everybody, either on purpose or through ignorance. Unfortunately the ones with the money are the ones who are paid most attention to.

My other $.02 is that the advent/explosion in quads/UTVs hasn't helped the motorized cause...I think because there is a certain public perception/stereotype that we unfortunately get lumped into by association.
Man, I really agree with the element of ATV/UTV use. At the risk of starting a sh!t storm of opinion and bias, I have honestly seen some crazy behavior out there over just a few years with the advent of these hyper-UTV's like Razors and such. I don't see that much irresponsible driving with the ATVs, but these mini-Baja-truck UTV's are often piloted by young, reckless, irresponsible operators who don't know any better or don't give a crap about their fellow trail users. I guess the ability/security to sit strapped into a rollcaged equipped, high horsepower vehicle gives a sense of invincibility, and it's often accompanied by a lack of skill. Motorcycles at least seem to weed out the dumb and stupid operators fairly quickly. Sorry...rant over.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:09 AM   #97
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I guess the ability/security to sit strapped into a rollcaged equipped, high horsepower vehicle gives a sense of invincibility, and it's often accompanied by a lack of skill.
I think the issue is investment of time. Riding a motorcycle takes years of practice, which indicates an investment of time and attention. Driving a UTV is for anyone to try this week, trade it in next week.

What makes me crazy are the people I see abusing on an OHV, who I know see this as a one time deal. There are so many of us that regard it as a lifestyle, and our efforts to preserve and maintain are shit upon by that crowd. It's not that our use is better than their use, it's that one attitude and approach is better than another, and that attitude tends to align itself unevenly across machine type.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:27 AM   #98
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Man, I really agree with the element of ATV/UTV use. At the risk of starting a sh!t storm of opinion and bias, I have honestly seen some crazy behavior out there over just a few years with the advent of these hyper-UTV's like Razors and such. I don't see that much irresponsible driving with the ATVs, but these mini-Baja-truck UTV's are often piloted by young, reckless, irresponsible operators who don't know any better or don't give a crap about their fellow trail users. I guess the ability/security to sit strapped into a rollcaged equipped, high horsepower vehicle gives a sense of invincibility, and it's often accompanied by a lack of skill. Motorcycles at least seem to weed out the dumb and stupid operators fairly quickly. Sorry...rant over.
I totally agree with this assessment and I think we somehow need to get that point across. While reviewing a great ride report on the area from the group out of Maryland, I thought that we need to convey the thought that we offroad moto riders are mostly like the horse riders of the past. We venture out into wide open spaces with our camping gear and enjoy the scenery without doing damage while riding on existing trails and roads. These roads need to be kept open for required energy development, which they arose from in the first place mostly. I even thought about sending the trip report (link below) to Washington to show them how appropriate this activity is for central Utah.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=737400
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:46 AM   #99
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So Thanks for everyone's support so far, I am pulling the petition down tonight and will be sending it to the retailers.

If anyone still wants to sign it please do it today.

Thanks,
ben
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:08 PM   #100
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Done!
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:07 PM   #101
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Petition is down, thanks for all those that signed it.

I will have to mail it out to most of the businesses, so it may take a while. I will try and contact the businesses that are most likely to change their position first.

I will update this thread with any responses I get.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:38 PM   #102
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This is a fairly long read, but it's one of the best rebuttals to the proposed land grab near Canyonlands National Park that I've seen.

Link to A Rebuttal to the OIA

Take the time to read it, it's written by someone with a lot of experience with the BLM and the land-management in the area for a lot of years. Here's the introduction:

Quote:
My name is Lynn Jackson. I have lived and worked in southeastern Utah since 1964, in Carbon, Wayne and Grand counties. I was a geologist, supervisor and manager for the Bureau of Land Management in Hanksville and Moab for 32 years, retiring in 2010. I now do public land consulting, and in November was elected to the Grand County Council. My Council term does not start until January 2013, and my comments herein are my own, based on my own experience in this area, and are not intended to reflect the position of Grand County.

My comments are provided as rebuttal to Ashley Korenblatt’s recent written statement regarding the need for a National Monument in southeast Utah as proposed by the Outdoor Industry Association (OIA). I feel compelled at this time to address what I see are inaccurate, incorrect and misleading assertions identified as rationale for creation of this monument.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:52 PM   #103
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This is a fairly long read, but it's one of the best rebuttals to the proposed land grab near Canyonlands National Park that I've seen.

Link to A Rebuttal to the OIA

Take the time to read it, it's written by someone with a lot of experience with the BLM and the land-management in the area for a lot of years. Here's the introduction:
Thanks for the link. Very logical and I think hit the nail on the head.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:21 PM   #104
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Thanks for the link. Very logical and I think hit the nail on the head.
Unfortunately, "logic" is lost on the majority of the radical Enviro-Nazis who want to lock out everyone except for people who share their viewpoint.

The thing I liked best about the rebuttal written is that it was a long-time BLM supervisor / manager / geologist who actually KNOWS about the geologic potential and whether or not it's really open for any sort of "boom" as claimed by the Sierra Club / Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance / et al, and who can effectively "debunk" any claims the enviro-nuts are trying to push off onto the public and President in their attempt to get a new National Monument decreed.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:36 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by acidman1968 View Post
This is a fairly long read, but it's one of the best rebuttals to the proposed land grab near Canyonlands National Park that I've seen.

Link to A Rebuttal to the OIA

Take the time to read it, it's written by someone with a lot of experience with the BLM and the land-management in the area for a lot of years. Here's the introduction:
I couldn't agree more. So well said by someone who is intimate to the area. Thanks a TON for posting it!

I'm going to share the link with the companies that responded to my emails on this issue and hopefully some of those that didn't.

Also, I know that Korenblat's letter is being discussed in Moab, and I'm sure Jackson's view is too. Seems like we need to get Jackson's knowledge and view to President Obama.
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