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Old 12-03-2012, 03:08 PM   #16
Bloodweiser OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
Why buy a top shelf bike and cheap it out? I'll never understand that.
Because I'm pretty broke because I just bought a top shelf bike

And I got engaged 2 weeks before I bought the bike.
She was pretty understanding there,
but telling her I'm dropping another grand into it,
well.....

I think we also are thinking of difference objectives.
Some folks are trying to get peak figures, I get that;
and some, like myself, are just trying to eliminate the lean stock conditions.

I've been trying to read as much as I can about this,
and came across a mention that the XIED/VIEDs are akin to upping a jet -
which is an analogy I get.

Is there more to it than that?
I mean, how much is the ignition curve effected by swapping a pipe, really?
If this was my 06 sportster, I'd bump the jets up and call it a day.

This fancy shit just kills me.
I was reading up on the powervision
and Id use it once to flash my ecm and then it'd probably go in the box.
Is this really what shops charge $100-200 for?
They're basically dropping a file on a USB and charging me 2 bills
Anyone within a days ride of NY with one just want to flash me??

Yes I'd love peak figures.
No I can't justify the expense.
I want my harley to sound like one
and I want to get it out of it's lean state.

XIEDs are $50 used 7 days a week.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:11 PM   #17
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My 2 cents worth

We sell the XIED leads in the UK. Typically to customers with stock bikes or just slip on cans. They are just looking to reduce engine heat and improve throttle response.

Not had any unhappy customers yet............
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodweiser View Post
Because I'm pretty broke because I just bought a top shelf bike

Anyone within a days ride of NY with one just want to flash me??
I think the PV gets married to the ECM of the bike, I think there is a way to purchase a second license to allow on another bike?
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodweiser View Post
came across a mention that the XIED/VIEDs are akin to upping a jet
I almost put that in my previous comment. I'm an old AMAL carb tuner, and these feel about the same as raising the needle a slot on a Brit 650 after doing filter or exhaust mods. It stops the 'hunting'. (And they do cut the heat noticeably.)
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakeeater View Post
Thanks for the info. What are the real-world riding changes with the SEPST in? In most of the harley forums, guys post their dyno sheets...and nothing else. I don't ride a dyno.

Is mpg much different? Pinging? Noticible power? Throttle response.

In my stock 103 2011 the only thing that bugs me is high altitude pinging under moderate throttle...esp. with low grade gas. Going up mountain passes I make sure I use 93 octane. Seems to help.

Cakeeater
Sorry in advance for the long winded reply/semi-rant.....

I hear ya on riding a dyno. The '12 Road Glide is the first EFI bike I've owned aside from a short stint with an '07 Tiger 1050 last year.

In the past I've simply swapped jets like Bloodweiser says and I knew how to do that which is why in '06 the 2 HD's we bought were carb models even though EFI had been available for more than 5 years.....I can swap jets for under $10 but EFI tuning I knew would cost a lot more.

The SEPST is expensive as you have to buy the software disk and the interface cable, about $400 from one of several 20% discount HD dealers.

The bikes come from the factory lean to meet EPA emissions standards and if left in totally stock form no tuning adjustments are necessary but as you experieinced you may/will get pinging under certain conditions. If you leave it completely stock and are Ok with pinging/making sure you have 93 octane it should be fine.

However, most HD owners make minor changes to release some of the pent up Hp/Tq that is restrained in stock form and/or to increase sound.

My bike is much more responsive as tuned but how much of that is due to the non-cat header, slip-ons and air filter vs. EFI tuning I really don't know as I did everything at once and can't seperate the two. It clearly runs smoother than as delivered stock with much better responsiveness.

Is the SEPST or similar tuning device necessary? On my bike as setup with non-oem headers, slip-ons and air filter, yea I think it something comparable is necessary. Could one get away with a piggy back device like the Xied, probably so but it won't run as efficiently and I personally would not go that route if I changed both intake and exhaust.

As tuned the RG runs great, does not put out much heat and is not significantly louder than stock with sound a function of the Supertrapp mufflers.

I expect the XR will respond similarly when I remove the PTF and make a few SmartTune runs with the SEPST. I really don'rt expect to see much increase in performance but have decided I prefer an ECM reflash as opposed to piggyback tuners. Using the SEPST reportedly voids the factory warranty but I really don't care about that, the '09 XR is way past the warranty period. I'm not sure if the Xieds do or not, I'm sure they will claim that they don't but if you have an engine/EFI issue and take the bike to an HD shop how are they going to view the piggy-back system? I know the mfgs claim they don't cause an issue but that's not a confrontation I want to have with a dealer's service dept if I'm traveling away from home and have an issue. Some claim just remove the device before going to the shop but that can be a PITA and if the device is working to richen up the engine, how badly might it run without it.

Just as a side note, HD sells a less expensive non-Race version of the SEPST, that will allow one to load a new map to account for mufflers and air filter but the downloads are EPA compliant so it will still run lean.....probably similar to Xieds....whereas the maps in the SEPST are consdered "for race use only" and are not EPA compliant.

It's kinda funny in that less than a week ago I was on the XR forum justifying my decison to go with a PTF rather than an actual tuning device...for the same reasons stated in this thread...$$$$$$.

But after making some adjustments to eliminate the low rpm stall, I'm now "tuned" much richer than any of the other guys with the PTF and I still get a good bit of ping if I roll on the throttle at around 2k rpm in fist gear. So now from my limited experience, I'm backing away from piggy back fuel controllers and recommending actual ECM tuners.
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blk-betty screwed with this post 12-03-2012 at 04:34 PM
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:42 PM   #21
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As far as I'm aware, with any of the Stage 1, 2 or 3 downloads at the HD dealer you are still going to end up with the mandated 14.7 to 1 AFR. As long as the bike is a street bike and not a racing bike they can't legally do anything else. They may add more fuel, raise the rev limit and change the timing, to compensate for different breathers & pipes, but at the end of the day it still has to run the 14.7. to 1 AFR.

And yes in my view the XIED's would void a warranty. They are no different than any other aftermarket fuel management system that you add that doesn't have the HD seal of approval.

I haven't seen any dyno runs with & without an XIED but it would be interesting to see what is actually going on. There is no doubt you are adding fuel to the mixture and the bike does run better, but at the end of the day I don't know what if any gain in HP or Torque there is. I wasn't interested in this end of the tuning, just wanted to have better all around drive ability on a stock bike. That they have accomplished.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleman2 View Post
As far as I'm aware, with any of the Stage 1, 2 or 3 downloads at the HD dealer you are still going to end up with the mandated 14.7 to 1 AFR. As long as the bike is a street bike and not a racing bike they can't legally do anything else. They may add more fuel, raise the rev limit and change the timing, to compensate for different breathers & pipes, but at the end of the day it still has to run the 14.7. to 1 AFR.
That's not entirely accurate.

Each time I open the SEPST program downloaded on my computer I get a Warning Dialog box that I have to either click Accept or Decline. Accept allows the progam to open, Decline closes the program. It essentially states that the custom maps contained within do not meet EPA standards and are not to be used on street motorcycles...bla bla bla.

The SE Street Performace Tuner is EPA compliant and is what is used if the dealer "downloads" or "flashes" the ECM reardless of stage 1, 2 or 3.

The SE Pro Race Tuner is not EPA compliant and what is used if the bike is actually dyno "tuned", again regardless of stage.

I'm sure there are some dealers that refuse to use anything other than the EPA compliant maps but there are also others that will.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:55 PM   #23
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Thanks Blk-Betty,

Nice to get real feedback.

One question that I have is MPG. Did you (or others) see a drop when you go richer on the fuel mixture?

One thing I love about this Road Glide is that it gets good mpg. I would figure leaner would be better for mpg, or am I wrong? Or does it not matter?

I don't notice the heat -- at least it never really bothers me. The pinging I can live with -- just keep it on 93 octane in the mountains. But I wouldn't mind more power, of course. The Harley is a sweet ride, terrific road manners, and keeps me grinning all day long...but i don't have to worry about flipping it backwards when I hit the gas. So, any more HP would be nice.

Cakeeater.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:54 AM   #24
Bloodweiser OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
So now from my limited experience, I'm backing away from piggy back fuel controllers and recommending actual ECM tuners.
I did not realize there were 2 different subsets of gizmos.
What are the pros and cons?

Can we make a list of what product fits in each category?

Ive got a lot to learn.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:22 AM   #25
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I did simple and conventional. Stage one down load, EPA compliant SE slip-ons and different air filter. I use premium, no pinging, more beans, higher rpm and not noisy. Six bills.

Good enough for how I ride an ultra. So far.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakeeater View Post
Thanks for the info. What are the real-world riding changes with the SEPST in? In most of the harley forums, guys post their dyno sheets...and nothing else. I don't ride a dyno.

Is mpg much different? Pinging? Noticible power? Throttle response.

In my stock 103 2011 the only thing that bugs me is high altitude pinging under moderate throttle...esp. with low grade gas. Going up mountain passes I make sure I use 93 octane. Seems to help.

Cakeeater
I use the xied adjustable on my 103" Police model Road King. I get 40+mpg all day long, no pinging, with good power and throttle response. The bike is stock except for Big Sucker II, V&H Power dual header and Supertrapp cans and I live at 7000 feet of elevation. I'm sure my bike could run better after a dyno tune but I might not be able to tell the difference...
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Bloodweiser View Post
conditions.
Is this really what shops charge $100-200 for?
No. Here is a screenshot of a SERT screen. There are several like this for different aspects of the ECU controls and to tune it I use an adjustable throttle stop and run the bike at various percentages of open and tune the fuel delivery/spark advance/ect. in concert with the info provided by the dyno. It is the only way to accurately tune EFI.


If the Xied ups it a jet size what throttle opeing/RPM needs a jet size? How do you determine what throttle opening/RPM needs less fuel???

There is so much more to tuning than throwing some fuel at it. I resent the implication that we just hit a few keys and overcharge for that. You do you Xied and I'll tune a similar bike and we'll go for a ride. My bike will out-perform your Xied bike in every way. Power,start up cold/hot,efficiency and even sound. A properly tuned bike sounds crisp and responsive. Like I said save up and do it right. The bike runs fine now,put off the instant gratification and wait. You really do get what ya pay for.

And we won't even get into the shit exhaust systems most guys install on their Harleys.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:15 AM   #28
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P.S. Cakeeater use premium fuel in your 103 all the time.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:47 AM   #29
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The XIED doesn't compete with a full blown Race Tuner or any other tuner set up with aftermarket pipes breather and whatever. The XIED"s are meant to address the lean running condition & related symptoms when the bike is in closed loop only, as that's when the ECM is getting its signals from the 02 sensor. The end result is that it richens this area to around 13.8 to 1 ( this depends a bit on which XIED you use ) and that's about it. They have minimal effect before and after the bike is in closed loop.

I don't really look at an XIED as a tuner, because it only has an effect on the voltage signal the ECM gets from the 02 Sensors and that's it. The ECM adds or subtracts fuel based on the reading it is getting from the 02 Sensor, which is really only active when the engine is in closed loop mode.

Full blown tuners ( depending on type ) can change the reading the ECM is getting from the other sensors and adjust timing, fuel,rev limit etc.

For those of us running stock bikes the XIED is a simple solution for the lean running conditions.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
No. Here is a screenshot of a SERT screen. There are several like this for different aspects of the ECU controls and to tune it I use an adjustable throttle stop and run the bike at various percentages of open and tune the fuel delivery/spark advance/ect. in concert with the info provided by the dyno. It is the only way to accurately tune EFI.


If the Xied ups it a jet size what throttle opeing/RPM needs a jet size? How do you determine what throttle opening/RPM needs less fuel???

There is so much more to tuning than throwing some fuel at it. I resent the implication that we just hit a few keys and overcharge for that. You do you Xied and I'll tune a similar bike and we'll go for a ride. My bike will out-perform your Xied bike in every way. Power,start up cold/hot,efficiency and even sound. A properly tuned bike sounds crisp and responsive. Like I said save up and do it right. The bike runs fine now,put off the instant gratification and wait. You really do get what ya pay for.

And we won't even get into the shit exhaust systems most guys install on their Harleys.
I just bought the SE Pro Super Tuner but have not installed it yet. What is your opinion of the Smart-Tune software? I know it won't be as good as a dyno tune, but do you think it is sufficent for a pipe and a/c upgrade? My bike is a '12 FLHR. I have a V&H Pro-Pipe on it now and have a SE Heavy Breather a/c that I plan to install with the tuner.
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