ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > GS Boxers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-09-2012, 09:52 AM   #16
ebbo
Gnarly Adventurer
 
ebbo's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: England
Oddometer: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by rforrester View Post
i have a feeling I may have contacted fatduck about an adaptor for my 1200 some while back, maybe I'm mistaken, but it never came to anything anyway, good luck because it maybe a nice simple fix
__________________
Martin Ebdon, England, R1200RT
Orkney 2009 trip report
ebbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 05:42 AM   #17
Disco Dean
Beastly Adventurer
 
Disco Dean's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: The Great White North
Oddometer: 1,195
This is great and thinking about doing it to my '06 GS.

Question though - I would love to see the dyno charts before and after for this 2009.

You mentioned your bike had 80hp before and it is an '09.

Seems to me that the '09 has 103-05 HP to begin with so I am thinking your gains are more in drivability than big HP gains.

I haven't seen anyone get that much HP gain from a pipe or a "re-program" - that is close to 10%!!!!!

Just want to be sure this is apples to apples because if I do it that will mean a good 110hp as my bike stock is close to 100hp.

Do you have your specific bike dyno before and after?

Am I wrong or reading it wrong?

D.
__________________
youmoveyou

As your attorney, I advise you to buy a motorcycle. How else can we cover a thing like this righteously?
Disco Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 06:06 AM   #18
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by rforrester View Post
I like the sound of this! I have a 2005 1200GS as well as a 2007 Ducati S4RS Monster. The two cylinder Ducati was TERRIBLE below 5000 RPM and it was due to the fact that the bike was on a closed loop ECU system below 5K (or 4K, not sure where its is set). In a closed loop, correct me if I am wrong, the engine Fuel/Air mixture is dependent on the data from the O2 sensor. There is really no "data" sent from the sensor. All the O2 sensor does is send a different level of voltage to the ECU and the ECU adjusts the fuel/air mixture depending on the voltage the O2 sensor sends. I bought a very simple solution from the folks at www.fatduc.com for my Ducati. $80

The O2 manipulator installs in line with the O2 sensor between the sensor and the ECU. It is a very small voltage regulator that you can manipulate via a small screw on the wire to adjust the voltage sent to the ECU "Tricking" the ECU into thinking it does not have enough fuel. WOW! as soon as I installed the manipulator on the Ducati it was a COMPLETELY different bike!
O2 Manipulators are an economical solution to alter the closed loop air-fuel ratio on many Ducati Motorcyles. O2 Manipulators are “plug and play” requiring NO cutting or splicing of wires and installs inline at the factory oxygen sensor connection. O2 Manipulators work by altering the oxygen sensor output voltage. This slight reduction in voltage forces the ECU to add additional fuel.

I am emailing fatduc now to see if they can make one with the connectors found on the 1200GS.
If you go to nightrider.com you will see a similar solution for Harley Davidson's. The approach is sound and takes advantage of the exact voltage characteristics of the stock O2 sensor. The ECUs are usually making the rich/lean decision at a certain voltage. The stock O2 sensor changes from rich 0.8 volts to lean 0.1 volts, very abruptly at a gasoline AFR of 14.7:1.

These devices, fatduc and nightrider, modify the voltage so that the switching conditions needed by the ECU get shifted in voltage. The only problem is that this approach doesnt work with every ECU. They are not highly accurate but if you want more fuel, and they make one that works with your particular ECU, you can get a very good result. If you dial these devices to say 14.1:1, 4% more fuel is added to closed loop, and through a slower process called Adaptation, to Open Loop also.

This is a very economical, technically sound approach if it works on your particular bike. With this approach you don't know how much fuel you've added exactly but you dial in more until you like the result.

If you want more precision and measurement capability, the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 allows precise programming of Closed Loop AFR.

In both approaches you need one device per O2 sensor.

RB
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 08:53 AM   #19
dutch97501 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dutch97501's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Medford Or
Oddometer: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco Dean View Post
This is great and thinking about doing it to my '06 GS.

Question though - I would love to see the dyno charts before and after for this 2009.

You mentioned your bike had 80hp before and it is an '09.

Seems to me that the '09 has 103-05 HP to begin with so I am thinking your gains are more in drivability than big HP gains.

I haven't seen anyone get that much HP gain from a pipe or a "re-program" - that is close to 10%!!!!!

Just want to be sure this is apples to apples because if I do it that will mean a good 110hp as my bike stock is close to 100hp.

Do you have your specific bike dyno before and after?

Am I wrong or reading it wrong?

D.

You are correct if you are talking hp at the crank shaft. I am talking at the rear wheel . You loose 25% from crank to rear wheel. If you go over to ukgser forum and do some looking around you will find lots of dyno charts and feedback. I would post the link but adv rules frown on it.

So I got up early Sunday morning and decided to go for a ride. 450 miles of bliss. I started out in southern Oregon and headed south on the interstate to Klamath River Hwy. I told myself I was going to behave and see what the mpg is and I blew it right out the gate. As soon as I hit the twisties it was on. The transition from off throttle to on throttle at mid corner is amazing. It pulls so much harder low in the rpms that you find your self going way faster than you think. The point where you are floating the throttle not really speeding up or slowing down is smooth as silk. At that point you can yank the throttle to the pin and it just goes. The bike runs like you would expect a BMW to run. I have noticed over the years that BMW always seems to pull an extra 5 or 10 hp at the end of a model run without really changing anything. Now I get it! So the start of this ride took me to 6000 feet and now Im headed for the Calif coast at sea level. I went ahead and made a detour thru forks of the salmon just to see what its like in December. The road is covered in wet leaves and moss is what I found. Very slick. The bike was great. I could control the bike right down to an idle where before I was having to slip the clutch to keep the bike going slow enough to navigate the trouble spots. It makes parking lots so much easier. So back out on the hwy I go headed for Eureka Ca for lunch and sea level. The bike was as spot on at sea level as it was at 6000 ft. As I headed north on hwy 101 The odo was at that point where the fuel light comes on. It came and went without the fuel light coming on. Being on the left coast Im stuck having to run 10% methanol which kills your fuel mileage. Normally in the winter I can get about 280 miles before the fuel light comes on. This time I fueled at 325 miles and the light wasn't on yet but it was 75 miles to the next station, It took 8.1 gallons. At this rate this mod will pay for its self just in fuel mpg. I then jumped on the redwood hwy headed for cave junction. Now anyone who has ridden that stretch of hwy has had to deal with the motorhomes and the 20mph and the pinning it in the straits so no one can get around them GRRR. Well I left it up in the meat of the powerband and was able to blast bye the strings of cars at will. It reminded me of the sportbike days. The only thing I wish this bike had was cruise control.Well as I rolled back into the garage the bike tripped the 450 mark and I couldn't wash the grin off my face : )







dutch97501 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 09:24 AM   #20
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch97501 View Post
...
It pulls so much harder low in the rpms that you find your self going way faster than you think. The point where you are floating the throttle not really speeding up or slowing down is smooth as silk. At that point you can yank the throttle to the pin and it just goes. The bike runs like you would expect a BMW to run.
...
Good report, good photos. I second your observation, it's hard to be convincing on how much better these boxers can run. As an example, I was out yesterday on my 1150 w/LC-1 riding at 35mph in 5th gear at times, feeling the umpf when I cranked the throttle.

I've realized how easy it is to turn the GS-911 into a Dyno and will write that up soon.
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 10:18 AM   #21
Disco Dean
Beastly Adventurer
 
Disco Dean's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: The Great White North
Oddometer: 1,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch97501 View Post
You are correct if you are talking hp at the crank shaft. I am talking at the rear wheel . You loose 25% from crank to rear wheel. If you go over to ukgser forum and do some looking around you will find lots of dyno charts and feedback. I would post the link but adv rules frown on it.
Looks and sounds like fun for sure. Man I wish I could ride where it wasn't minus 5 Celsius and icy.. You are lucky.

Dyno runs are notoriously suspect and also variable down to operator and also dyno machine and the day it was done - so I am always cautious.

Unfortunately you don't have a dyno of your bike to gauge before and or after - which would be good for my brain.

I will be dyno-ing my GS before and after and will post as soon as I get the run done.

There is a lot of online support suggesting that Hilltop does the job right but any gain of more than 20% is almost too good to be true.

A re-pogram would be a good option and much cleaner than all the additional plugs and chips etc. that are available - I guess the only issue being that it is no longer stock and what data crunching needs to be done to get in there and what else is changed.

The BMW control units are notoriously hard to access and guys in NA have tried very hard to get in - I am amazed that Hilltop has managed it. Even the race teams here were not allowed access for the cup bikes they were using.

I am looking for an update and just might give those guys a call. Thanks,
__________________
youmoveyou

As your attorney, I advise you to buy a motorcycle. How else can we cover a thing like this righteously?
Disco Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 11:11 AM   #22
dutch97501 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dutch97501's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Medford Or
Oddometer: 113
Horsepower and torque always cross at 5250 rpm. Its a easy way to see if the dyno has been set up properly. I was a hard sell on this ecm remapping. After reading all the feedback on Hilltop I went ahead with it. In the past I have tried,

Powercommander. It made the fuel mileage worse but smoothed things out a bit but no noticeable power gain.

Techlusion. Bad mileage and created a spark knock issue.

Resistor air temp mod. I put together a series of resistors on a rheostat and tuned them with a gs 911. I could make the bike smooth out at idle and just off idle but again poor mileage. But it was the cheapest mod at about $6

Teka from Factory Pro. It worked a lot like the powercommander but did increase power and make poor fuel mileage.
dutch97501 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:20 PM   #23
SeeRace
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Kennesaw, Ga
Oddometer: 196
Thanks for posting this. I am wondering how much louder your bike is with the cat cleaned out. Yours is an 09, so not as loud to start as a 10+.
SeeRace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 04:00 PM   #24
dutch97501 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dutch97501's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Medford Or
Oddometer: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeRace View Post
Thanks for posting this. I am wondering how much louder your bike is with the cat cleaned out. Yours is an 09, so not as loud to start as a 10+.
The bike didn't seem to get louder but rather the tone changed. It's deeper in tone now.
dutch97501 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 04:41 PM   #25
fred flintstone
Studly Adventurer
 
fred flintstone's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Above 7600 ft.
Oddometer: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch97501 View Post
Horsepower and torque always cross at 5250 rpm. Its a easy way to see if the dyno has been set up properly.
Well.... HP is derived (calculated) from directly measured TQ, dyno only actually measures TQ. Plenty of dynos can be set up wrong yet still HP and TQ will cross at 5252.

HP = TQ (lb-f) x RPM/5252

Here 5252 is just 33000/2pi rounded off, and the 33000 is from the old definition of 1 HP being 33,000 ft·lbf/min power output that your standardized horse could generate. Or so I recall.
fred flintstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 06:51 PM   #26
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Well.... HP is derived (calculated) from directly measured TQ, dyno only actually measures TQ. Plenty of dynos can be set up wrong yet still HP and TQ will cross at 5252.

HP = TQ (lb-f) x RPM/5252

Here 5252 is just 33000/2pi rounded off, and the 33000 is from the old definition of 1 HP being 33,000 ft·lbf/min power output that your standardized horse could generate. Or so I recall.
That's right. Because the formulas are very straightforward, you can use a GS-911 to log RPM and time data, then from the logged file you can use the time and the RPM data to calculate acceleration. With knowledge of the weight of the bike you can calculate torque and from that, HP. Below is such a plot made by using the GS-911. The curves are a little bumpy because I only used a few points but it is the real torque of the motor, actually accelerating a motorcycle on the highway. The average torque at 2100 RPM is nearly 60 lb-ft, in large part strengthened from the richer mixtures. Whether you richen by Wideband O2 or ECM remap, you get a solid performance boost.

roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 05:59 AM   #27
dutch97501 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dutch97501's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Medford Or
Oddometer: 113
Thats pretty cool. I never thought about using the gs911 for that. I have the dynollicious app on my iphone just no way to hold the iphone to the bike. I like most of us on here enjoy tinkering with my bikes when I cant get out and ride. It seems like most of the bike failures Ive had over the years have been self induced. For instance last July I went to Nevada . I wanted to see high rock canyon. The Hyperpro shock on the rear blew a seal and ended the trip. When I sent it in for warranty they said one of their supplier had sent them the wrong seal and the oil destroyed the rubber. With this ecu remap theirs no aftermarket add on to go bad. the bike still has the reliability that BMW gave it. I was concerned about whether the local dealer could over write the program when I take it in. Geoff at Hilltop said he write protects the map so they cant. At this point summer cant get here quick enough. I haven't been this excited to ride since I bought the bike.
dutch97501 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 07:22 AM   #28
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,064
I was unaware of the Dynolicious application, thanks for pointing it out.

Your comment on reliability is well made. I can see a good way to use the PC-III USB as an alternative to the LC-1 on R1150s. However, the PCIII adds a computer in series with the fueling calculations, it intercepts and adds connectors to the TPS, and both injectors. To me, that's a lot of added stuff that could affect reliability. If the PCIII or any of the connectors go on the blink, the bike stops. The PC-V (not available for 1150) solution also diables Closed Loop operation. Closed Loop is a major POSITIVE reliability factor because it corrects small errors. The LC-1 is a very simple "system" modification, see the block diagram here: LC-1 and R1150 Block Diagram. Even if it fails, the bike still runs well because the Motronic knows what to do with a failed O2 sensor.

In principle, as you say, the Hilltop ECU Remap, doesn't change the R1200 reliability equation (unless they've added a risky amount of Spark Advance) and I like the idea a lot. That said, I see a problem: if they have not disabled the stock O2 sensors, I don't know why the BMS-K doesn't eventually reduce the effectiveness of the remap by Adapting to it. If they have reduced usage of the O2 sensors, then I'm wondering where in the RPM range you've lost Closed Loop function. It's possible that they've given you the added performance by changing the map where the Motorcycle is normally Open Loop (above 48 degrees throttle on the 1150) and found a way to change the acceleration enrichment. Sorry that I'm so focused on the details of how it works.

Enjoy the discussion,
RB
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 08:07 AM   #29
dutch97501 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dutch97501's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Medford Or
Oddometer: 113
As far as timing goes I have not been able to get spark knock since I have had it remapped. It did have spark knock stock. If you brought it down under 3k and opened the throttle it sounded like you just dropped a hand full of rocks in the engine and would stall. That is gone now. I can take the bike down to 1k and open the throttle and have it pull away. as far as adaptive strategy as the bike got a few hundred miles on it the power has not dropped off. Everything seems to have gotten smoother. Theirs no smell of unburned fuel .The fuel mileage just keeps getting better. I have often thought about how BMW as time goes by adds hp when sales drop off. I think I get it now . If sales drop off give the bike 5hp and get them to upgrade. I was looking at the 2013 water cooled gs. The only water cooling I can see is the head. its oil/water cooled. But its a few pounds lighter and has cruise control. I really liked my 1150GS and when I upgraded to the 1200GSA I just wasn't happy. The bike just never felt as crisp as the 1150. Sure I was able to make it handle by upgrading the shocks and it ran smooth and would rev higher but it never had the snap till now. I cant stand it I want to go for a Ride. I'm sitting here at work 10 feet from my bike and watching the sun come up. I must resist.
dutch97501 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 08:07 AM   #30
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,064
Here is a chart of 6 runs I took the other day. Except for the Wideband O2 and fuel pressure boost, everything else is stock. Lots of Torque between 2000 and 3000 RPM.

roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014