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Old 12-10-2012, 01:24 PM   #1
metsaline OP
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Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Tartu, Estonia
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Question R1150GS low power - out of ideas

Hello guys,

I have some trouble with my '02 R1150GS and Iīm out of ideas.

Bike: BMW R1150GS 2002 single-spark, cat. removed, Remus y-piece and muffler.

Problem:
Low power, wont start in certain conditions.

Bike will start perfectly when cold, when I rev it after the start it will die and wont start for a while. When it does after a while only one cylinder will work (I can say that if not all the time then usually it is the right one that wont work. When i pull the spark plug it is wet. After cleaning it up, bike will start after long running). After some high reving other one will join in. I have to keep rpm over 2000 to keep it going. When it warms up I can lower rpm to normal. When hot, bike usually starts fine.

Low power - wheelie is not an option in any gear. While in 6th 85mph is my top speed, when I shift down to 5th I can get near 100. Switching back to 6th will lower speed back to 85 (empty bike, no gear on it).

What I have checked/did:

I have had the bike for 2,5 seasons / 22k miles. Problem has been there from day 1.

*Changed spark plugs several times - no effect.
*Changed fuel filter several times, some questionable fuel lines and clamps - no effect.
*Changed air filter, checked air intake and clamps - no effect.
*Adjusted valves in every spring - no effect.
*Cat plug trick (bike has aftermarket output, cat. removed) was there when I bought it, have played with it - no effect.
*Restarted/cleared/checked for error on ECU - no effect.
*Reset throttle - no effect.
*Sent it in for TB adjustment - came back, no effect.
*Bought Twin-Max to check it myself - perfectly adjusted but.. NO EFFECT!

While itīs hard to believe that the top speed for this bike should be 85mph itīs impossible to belive that it should not be revved when cold.

I have not measured compression yet but I cant imagine that being a problem as the bike has only 70000 on it and after staying out in -3 celsius for 3 weeks starts up like a priest around choir boys.

Findings: yes, the fuel pump is making a lot of noise but it has been like that for last 22000 miles and it should get itīs fuel because it will speed up from 85 with 5th gear at higher rpm.

I have used only OEM parts and original BMW 20W50 mineral oil. When I bought the bike it was crashed but seemed well maintained. In first day I changed the oil and one could not find any differnse between the oil that came out compaired to the oil that went in.

Could it be HES? It could by some posts that I have read but spending another €450 just to have no effect.. seems.. pointless.

Looking forward for some fresh ideas.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:35 PM   #2
cardoctor1
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i wonder if maybe the injectors could be gummed up. when i had an issue with my bike the fuel line in the tank split. i had volumn but low fuel pressure. replaced the hoses in the tank which are special by the way and expensive. had my local napa store flush and test the injectors and its been all good
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cardoctor1 screwed with this post 12-10-2012 at 01:41 PM
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:38 PM   #3
pcwirepro
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You got spark?

Single spark = no stick coils. Bad cable? Bad coil? Swap cables to see if the lack of spark moves to the other side? Wet plug doesn't sound like an injector issue.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:31 PM   #4
vintagerider
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my routine, hope this helps:
perform entire fuel prep and delivery system service, inspection and maintenance (see my previous posts - shops rarely do all that is required on the fuel system) > fuel pump pressure and volume test > remove coil, inspect, check resistance with heat applied from heat gun > spark lead resistance test > visual inspection of spark being careful not to crank engine unless well grounded spark plug is in place > visual inspection of wire harness > battery load test > read motronic faults > adjust throttle cables, valves, TB sync, TPS verify.

If engine still has performance issues then check injector spray pattern. If good replace HES

Note that item one above includes things not normally inspected such as: removing rubber intake manifold to check for cracks, damage; fuel pump impeller and check valve insp; fuel regulator test (optional-they rarely fail); replace all internal fat lines inside tank; clean tank ports; verify tank venting; renew charcoal kanister (EVAP) if so installed. This may sound involved but once the tank is cleaned and dried it is easy to service.

Motronic, oil temp sender, AIT sender rarely fail so those are last resort. Lambda test should reveal necessity of renewal.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:35 PM   #5
tjt94
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I had sporadic issues that were similar and it was fuel delivery. The tank liner had peeled in big chunks and was plugging the fuel intake. I pealed all of the liner out, replaced the filter, and buttoned it up. That was 10K miles ago and all is well. Good luck.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #6
roger 04 rt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider View Post
my routine, hope this helps:
perform entire fuel prep and delivery system service, inspection and maintenance (see my previous posts - shops rarely do all that is required on the fuel system) > fuel pump pressure and volume test > remove coil, inspect, check resistance with heat applied from heat gun > spark lead resistance test > visual inspection of spark being careful not to crank engine unless well grounded spark plug is in place > visual inspection of wire harness > battery load test > read motronic faults > adjust throttle cables, valves, TB sync, TPS verify.

If engine still has performance issues then check injector spray pattern. If good replace HES

Note that item one above includes things not normally inspected such as: removing rubber intake manifold to check for cracks, damage; fuel pump impeller and check valve insp; fuel regulator test (optional-they rarely fail); replace all internal fat lines inside tank; clean tank ports; verify tank venting; renew charcoal kanister (EVAP) if so installed. This may sound involved but once the tank is cleaned and dried it is easy to service.

Motronic, oil temp sender, AIT sender rarely fail so those are last resort. Lambda test should reveal necessity of renewal.
I agree with all these comments. You can rule out a lot of fuel system problems if you have 43.5 psi fuel pressure in the line from tank to fuel pressure distributor at idle, and if you have 2 liters per minute flowing back to the tank in the return line at idle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by metsaline View Post

Low power - wheelie is not an option in any gear. While in 6th 85mph is my top speed, when I shift down to 5th I can get near 100. Switching back to 6th will lower speed back to 85 (empty bike, no gear on it).
This comment makes me want to confirm fuel delivery volume and pressure.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:15 PM   #7
metsaline OP
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Thank You for comments.

I have pulled everything from the tank, visually all seemed ok. No fuel volume/pressure tests have done thou.. As in my opinion it could no be a lack of fuel issue because accelerating from 85mph with 6th gear should take less fuel than with 5th. And I can get more speed at higher rpm with lower gear when the consumption is higher.

Condition of the coils is not like new but I do not have more issues when itīs wet or cold. I did not have any more/worse problems while in Finland I was caught by 24h storm - ride it out. I can take the bike while it has been outside for few days in the rain - works same as in good weather. This summer we rode 2 weeks in Romania/Hungary in +35 celsius in perfect weather nothing was better nor worse. If the coils or harness were bad then it should show some difference with try/wet conditions. Have tested the spark when the bike does now start and the spark is still there.

One more notice is that I can feel some vibration when the speed is getting over 55mph. It should be the engine because when I pull the clutch the vibration is gone.

Good thing is that we have +30cm of snow already and in few days it should be -20 and less celsius outside so I have few months to figure it out. Again.

Made the thread just to be sure if I have not skipped anything obvious. Your input is highly valued.

Ahh, yes.. I have US version so I had a charcoal canister but it was one of the first thing that I removed. Rubber grommets replacing the hoses are new and looking good. After removal ventilation of the tank is ok.

metsaline screwed with this post 12-10-2012 at 11:22 PM
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:24 AM   #8
roger 04 rt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metsaline View Post
Thank You for comments.

I have pulled everything from the tank, visually all seemed ok. No fuel volume/pressure tests have done thou.. As in my opinion it could no be a lack of fuel issue because accelerating from 85mph with 6th gear should take less fuel than with 5th. And I can get more speed at higher rpm with lower gear when the consumption is higher.


.
Here's why I think your symptoms say to look carefully at the fuel:

For normal cruising at 60 mph both injectors are on twice per cycle for about 3.5 mS. When accelerating in 5th gear at 60-65, the injectors are on for 6 mS (milliseconds) or more. If you downshift from5th to 6th the engine turns about 30% slower but the fuel pulses get about 30% longer. (It takes about the same amount of air and fuel to make the same torque/horsepower). So accelerating in 6th at 60, the injectors have to open for 7-8 mS.

When the engine is cold you have a similar situation but not as bad. When warm and riding around, the injectors are only open for about 3 mS.

If you make a fuel pressure and return fuel volume test just above idle, the fuel system (except for injectors) performance will be known.

RB
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