Rear Brake Usage during Braking

[randyo]

If your doing a stoppie, your not using 100% of your braking power

your just distributing 100% of the power that you are applying to the front

your shortest stopping distances are attained by using both front and rear and shifting and keeping your bodyweight as rearward as possible. ratio front to rear is dependent on your weight distribution on your bike

[viverrid]

The major fail on this thread is the confusion between "you don't need to use the rear brake to stop" and "you shouldn't use the rear brake to stop".

It is just ridiculous to avoid using the rear at all, because of fear you might someday misuse it in a completely different situation.

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by ParaMud

I am not saying all racers don't use their rear brakes, but most dont.

In that picture rossi is clealy not using the rear brake........

He is not applying the rear brake with his right foot at the time that photo was taken. So what! Many GP bikes also have a left thumb control for the rear brake. There are very few top riders who don't use the rear brake - I've never seen an top rider on a bike without all that extra unsprung weight of a caliper and disk on the rear - and you KNOW they'd get rid of any extraneous parts if they weren't necessary.

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by Pantah

It's a useful tool, but not for the reasons you lecture on. You're talking out your ass about things you are unfamiliar with. Who are you to lecture to anybody?

Anytime somebody posts "if you know how to use it" it means he is bullshitting. If he can't explain better than that, he doesn't know what he's doing or why.

Bullshit yourself. ANY tool works better if you know how to use it, and can hurt you if you don't. I didn't explain how to use it, because that wasn't the question or the topic. And of course you have zero idea what I am or am not familiar with, which makes your statement itself hypocritical. I've been riding daily for 25 years; haven't even had a car for regular transportation since 1988, and have over 300K street miles on bikes. That is more experience than average, and gives me some idea of what I'm talking about. You?

Ideally, for maximum braking, you hit the rear a fraction of a second before the front, to start the weight transfer and gain traction on the front immediately; you then squeeze the front strongly but smoothly up to the limit of adhesion for the surface you are on, while gradually letting off on the rear as the weight transfers off of it. If you are on a sportbike and a surface that is good enough, you will end in a near stoppie with no rear brake applied. On most bikes on most surfaces, you will not fully transfer the weight off the rear, and thus will still have a bit of rear brake applied all the way through.

Happy now?

Originally Posted by ParaMud

The tons of motorcycle racers do not use the rear brake during straight up and down braking into the corner.

Their job is to slow down as much as possible in the shortest amount of time and they don't use the rear brake.

As for using the rear tire to brake, YES I do. I downshift! and sometimes I still brake the tire loose which doesnt bug me.

They also are on racebikes with really sticky tires and topnotch brakes, and on good surfaces, where they can lift the rear at will. That's different from real life in the real world. And using engine braking instead of the rear brake is valid (unless you have a slipper clutch), although not terribly wise, as brake pads are cheaper than clutches.

Originally Posted by Vulfy

Well hold on... bringing Moto GP on slicks with professional riders on board, into this argument about a beginner learning to brake on a highway, is about as relevant as comparing horse apples to porcupines....

I would think its about a more gradual load on the tire and not locking the front. Relying solely on the front to take all the braking load, especially in a panic stop, is asking for a lockup of the front wheel. Add a curve in the road, and without proper practice, its much easier to wash out the front.

With rear, you can preload the bike, then transfer to the front, and ease up on the rear as needed.

And yes, unless you are stoppie-ing every time you come to a stop, your rear tire is still contacting the pavement and is still responsible for bike's braking. Braking with the engine by downshifting does not give you anything that a rear brake wouldn't give you, with a lot cheaper maintenance costs in a long run.

+1! This.

Originally Posted by ParaMud

I am not saying all racers don't use their rear brakes, but most dont.

In that picture rossi is clealy not using the rear brake........

Not necessarily. Many of the GPbikes now have rear brakes that are operated by a thumb lever (started by Doohan when he was racing with his leg too screwed up to press a brake lever). He seemed to feel that the rear brake was important enough to have them engineer a way for him to use one. Likewise with the modern riders who use that so that they can use both brakes and still wave their legs around if they want to.

Originally Posted by ParaMud

Yes, they can use the front brake when turning. That is what trail braking is, you just have to use more handlebar force to turn.

That's a more advanced and more difficult skill to master than using the rear brake.

Originally Posted by ParaMud

This whole topic is so she has the right habits when emergency braking, which is stopping as fast as possible. You can do whatever brake combo you want when coming to a normal stop, but if you are always using the rear brake, in a panic braking stop they are used to pressing the rear brake and then they could press it to much and lock it.

If that's really the whole topic, then everyone who is advising the learning and practice of how to use the rear brake is right, and you are simply factually wrong. The right habits when emergency braking, to stop as fast as possible, is using both brakes.

PhilB

[ChadHahn]

I'm reading the book Sport Riding Technniques. there is lots of good information on braking and brake usage. Use both brakes. He specifically talks in the book about racers using their rear brake.

The book would be a good thing for the OP to get and to share with his girlfriend. They could read it and practice the skills together.

Chad

[Barry]

Originally Posted by chadhahn

i'm reading the book sport riding technniques. there is lots of good information on braking and brake usage. Use both brakes. He specifically talks in the book about racers using their rear brake.

The book would be a good thing for the op to get and to share with his girlfriend. They could read it and practice the skills together.

Chad

this ^^^^^^

And...

GP bikes with thumb brakes for the rear, cause nobody needs a rear brake??? Right... so they added the weight and complexity just cause. OMG. REALLY??? Yes, they use the rear brake.

Barry

[Ronin ADV]

This thread reminds me of the old saying that it's cornering and braking that separate the men from the boys.
Good braking is definitely a learned skill.
I think it's generally a mistake to apply "absolute" rules to anything.
Telling someone to never use the rear on the street is about as silly as saying never use the front in the dirt.

Disclaimer: the above is just my opinion. I don't pretend to be an expert. So nobody get your panties in a twist.

[ParaMud]

I never said that motogp never use their rear brake or it never should be used of course they use it. Control wheelies, tighten a turn and some do use it when slowing down, but not all of them.

I know people who have lap records at race courses and never touch the rear brake. Most brake by downshifting.

Now lets talk about locking up the rear brake.


Will locking it up slow you down faster than not touching it?

[farmerstu]

Originally Posted by kerhonky

Where's the bad advice I gave? First I said



That's not advice, that's just fact. I was not advising the OP or his girlfriend to practice stoppies, and I doubt he would have read it that way.

Then I said



which I think is the same thing you said, except you called it "threshold braking" and added the qualifier that it should be done on every ride.

So basically, fuck you, stu.

little touchy are we. but sorry, i did a poor job of seperating my statement.
1. lots of bad advice (in general on this topic,not directed at you)
2.most bikes and stoppies responding to your post.
3.klr and op what i said.

[ParaMud]

Oh and Schwantz teaches to leave the rear brake alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huGexZrovco

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by bwalsh

The front brake supplies 70% of the stopping power. The rear takes up the slack. Why only use 70%(probably less if your not using bot brakes) of your stopping power? Learn/teach to use both brakes...and use BOTH of them. Practice your "emergency" braking technique often, BEFORE you need to use it.

Last time I checked when I have 100% weight transfer during stopping my back brake is supplying 0% of the braking power.

Assuming your riding a bike that can lift the rear wheel (aka not a harely). If you don't have 100% weight transfer (or damn close to it) then you're doing a bad job of "emergency" braking.

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by Barry

this ^^^^^^

And...

GP bikes with thumb brakes for the rear, cause nobody needs a rear brake??? Right... so they added the weight and complexity just cause. OMG. REALLY??? Yes, they use the rear brake.

Barry

There's a huge difference between using the rear brake as a "control" to help the bike do something specific versus using the brakes to stop.

You want to back it in sure you're going to need a bit of rear brake to make it slide smoothly, you want to take up some chain torque and control wheel spin out of a corner rear brake time...

If you're coming into a stop at full braking, if you'e doing it right the rear tire is either barely on the ground or not on the ground at all.

Even off road I routinely lift the back wheel using the front brake.

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

:He is not applying the rear brake with his right foot at the time that photo was taken. So what! Many GP bikes also have a left thumb control for the rear brake. There are very few top riders who don't use the rear brake - I've never seen an top rider on a bike without all that extra unsprung weight of a caliper and disk on the rear - and you KNOW they'd get rid of any extraneous parts if they weren't necessary.

You don't always use the rear brake for stopping

[catweasel67]

Originally Posted by crofrog

There's a huge difference between using the rear brake as a "control" to help the bike do something specific versus using the brakes to stop.

You want to back it in sure you're going to need a bit of rear brake to make it slide smoothly, you want to take up some chain torque and control wheel spin out of a corner rear brake time...

If you're coming into a stop at full braking, if you'e doing it right the rear tire is either barely on the ground or not on the ground at all.

Even off road I routinely lift the back wheel using the front brake.

But you understand that a newbie won't break as aggressively as you so would benefit from learning to use both to maximise their braking until they get close to your declared skill level?

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by PhilB

Bullshit yourself. ANY tool works better if you know how to use it, and can hurt you if you don't. I didn't explain how to use it, because that wasn't the question or the topic. And of course you have zero idea what I am or am not familiar with, which makes your statement itself hypocritical. I've been riding daily for 25 years; haven't even had a car for regular transportation since 1988, and have over 300K street miles on bikes. That is more experience than average, and gives me some idea of what I'm talking about. You?

Not really, doing the same wrong thing for 300k miles is no different than doing the same wrong thing for 5 miles (not saying what your doing is wrong per se)

Ideally, for maximum braking, you hit the rear a fraction of a second before the front, to start the weight transfer and gain traction on the front immediately; you then squeeze the front strongly but smoothly up to the limit of adhesion for the surface you are on, while gradually letting off on the rear as the weight transfers off of it. If you are on a sportbike and a surface that is good enough, you will end in a near stoppie with no rear brake applied. On most bikes on most surfaces, you will not fully transfer the weight off the rear, and thus will still have a bit of rear brake applied all the way through.

They also are on racebikes with really sticky tires and topnotch brakes, and on good surfaces, where they can lift the rear at will. That's different from real life in the real world. And using engine braking instead of the rear brake is valid (unless you have a slipper clutch), although not terribly wise, as brake pads are cheaper than clutches.

How do clutch plates wear when they are fully engaged?

If that's really the whole topic, then everyone who is advising the learning and practice of how to use the rear brake is right, and you are simply factually wrong. The right habits when emergency braking, to stop as fast as possible, is using both brakes.

I'd love to see some side by side test done with riders using both brakes versus just the front with repeated stops I think you'll find that adding the rear removes very little stopping distance while the chance of getting it wrong while stopping with the rear brake is allot more. You fuck up and lock both brakes you're going to have a much worse time than just locking the front.

[ParaMud]

Originally Posted by catweasel67

But you understand that a newbie won't break as aggressively as you so would benefit from learning to use both to maximise their braking until they get close to your declared skill level?

Isnt that why you practice? Tons of people are saying to go out and practice. Why start teaching the wrong thing?



Thanks guys for keeping this civilized, its hard to do that on the internet.