ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-20-2013, 01:16 AM   #76
ferals5
865+652
 
ferals5's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Goulburn, Australia
Oddometer: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by divimon2000 View Post
That's a confirmation for sure. Sealed is better. Whaddya gonna do? Keep em as is, or you going rogue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsbr View Post
dont rush me divimon! i still have time to flip-flop. could end up a coin toss. i would agree that sealed would be better if the engine/trans oil was very dirty or metal contaminated, but if the oil is kept clean and the engine/trans is "healthy" then more oil exposure seems better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsbr View Post
what i have learned so far is not all sealed bearings are the same. wheel bearings for instance would be lubed for life with grease, and sealed to keep grease in and water and road dirt out.

my new bmw bearings are designed for transmissions. they are greased only for initial lubrication, then the seal allows engine/trans oil to "leak in" to do the lubrication after the grease is washed out. they are designed this way.
I'd be putting in unsealed bearings... I don't think either Rubber or Synthetic seals will cope with the temperature inside.

Just to give another point of view... from a spanner twister.
ferals5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 07:40 AM   #77
divimon2000 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
divimon2000's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Lake Champlain, Vermont
Oddometer: 510
Don't get confused with the word "sealed", thats what is making the discussion go off on a tangent. These are only sealed to keep the bad stuff out. The little lube in there is just for initial lube only, then the oil takes over. Its designed that way. Read the engineering and testing reports, pretty interesting that they've been using them since the 70's in autos with real good results (better than open for transmissions). Rubber doesn't breakdown, bearings do get oil, and they last longer. Don't take the mfg's word, read the data. I'm more sold now. Can't wait to start putting this thing back together, looks like Feb 8.
__________________
F650 GS 2001
F650 GS DAKAR 2002
at least one should be running
divimon2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 08:20 AM   #78
ericsbr
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: NY
Oddometer: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by divimon2000 View Post
Don't get confused with the word "sealed", thats what is making the discussion go off on a tangent. These are only sealed to keep the bad stuff out. The little lube in there is just for initial lube only, then the oil takes over. Its designed that way. Read the engineering and testing reports, pretty interesting that they've been using them since the 70's in autos with real good results (better than open for transmissions). Rubber doesn't breakdown, bearings do get oil, and they last longer. Don't take the mfg's word, read the data. I'm more sold now. Can't wait to start putting this thing back together, looks like Feb 8.
been around since 1970s? i wonder why bmw and most everyone else is so late in using this better bearing technology.
ericsbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 02:34 PM   #79
ferals5
865+652
 
ferals5's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Goulburn, Australia
Oddometer: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by divimon2000 View Post
Don't get confused with the word "sealed", thats what is making the discussion go off on a tangent. These are only sealed to keep the bad stuff out. The little lube in there is just for initial lube only, then the oil takes over. Its designed that way. Read the engineering and testing reports, pretty interesting that they've been using them since the 70's in autos with real good results (better than open for transmissions). Rubber doesn't breakdown, bearings do get oil, and they last longer. Don't take the mfg's word, read the data. I'm more sold now. Can't wait to start putting this thing back together, looks like Feb 8.
I'm not confused divimon I know what a sealed bearing is... are you referring to shielded bearings? By the description of a 'seal on one side' I will suggest that the bearing in question is in fact a shielded bearing not a sealed bearing.They operate in the same as open bearings allowing lubrication but stopping large particles from reaching the bearing. Shielded bearings can come in single sided or double sided. Not convinced that I would be too worried about large bits floating around in my rotax Bearing failure will be the last thing on your mind...

Sealed bearing come in so many types it's not funny... single lip ( pointing in or pointing out), double lips, V ring, diaphragm types, rubbing v's non rubbing etc etc but are designed to keep either lube in or crap out or both.

hope this info helps

cheers

Mark
ferals5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 03:10 PM   #80
divimon2000 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
divimon2000's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Lake Champlain, Vermont
Oddometer: 510
Yeah all I'm doing is learning. I had no clue.
__________________
F650 GS 2001
F650 GS DAKAR 2002
at least one should be running
divimon2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 03:13 PM   #81
ferals5
865+652
 
ferals5's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Goulburn, Australia
Oddometer: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by divimon2000 View Post
Yeah all I'm doing is learning. I had no clue.
No better way to learn than getting your hands dirty
ferals5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 06:13 PM   #82
ericsbr
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: NY
Oddometer: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferals5 View Post
I'm not confused divimon I know what a sealed bearing is... are you referring to shielded bearings? By the description of a 'seal on one side' I will suggest that the bearing in question is in fact a shielded bearing not a sealed bearing.They operate in the same as open bearings allowing lubrication but stopping large particles from reaching the bearing. Shielded bearings can come in single sided or double sided. Not convinced that I would be too worried about large bits floating around in my rotax Bearing failure will be the last thing on your mind...

Sealed bearing come in so many types it's not funny... single lip ( pointing in or pointing out), double lips, V ring, diaphragm types, rubbing v's non rubbing etc etc but are designed to keep either lube in or crap out or both.

hope this info helps

cheers

Mark
the BMW bearings (made by NSK) that we are installing in this engine rebuild, are technically called "sealed-clean". they are designed specifically for use in transmissions. they are prelubed with grease which only last a few hours until it gets washed out by the oil. from then on the oil does all the lubricating.

page 3 of this document explains the NSK "sealed-clean" trans bearing and seal- http://jeep.yager.net/docs/trans-toy...nsmissions.pdf

ericsbr screwed with this post 01-20-2013 at 06:36 PM
ericsbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 08:24 PM   #83
ferals5
865+652
 
ferals5's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Goulburn, Australia
Oddometer: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsbr View Post
the BMW bearings (made by NSK) that we are installing in this engine rebuild, are technically called "sealed-clean". they are designed specifically for use in transmissions. they are prelubed with grease which only last a few hours until it gets washed out by the oil. from then on the oil does all the lubricating.

page 3 of this document explains the NSK "sealed-clean" trans bearing and seal- http://jeep.yager.net/docs/trans-toy...nsmissions.pdf
Interesting... so the bearings supplied by BMW are sealed bearings. Maybe a non rubbing radial lip sealed bearing to allow oil in?
I did read your linky when posted earlier but as moto's generally run transmissions as part of the engine lube system I don't see them as traditional transmissions per se. Maybe I need to change my view on that! Bmw supplied them so they are obviously correct although you did say the originals were open/shielded type...I'll also guess Bmw did no research on the advantage but just took what was offered from NSK (hope your keeping the NSK numbers so the rest of us don't have to buy genuine )

Not sure the test results in the article mean much for most of us with most machinery that has regular oil changes... they list open/ bearing fails of 99% at less than 50 hours pretty sure plenty of us have cars/trucks/bikes/lawn mowers whatever that run longer than that

Well, enough of the bearing hijack and on with the rest of the build
ferals5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:04 PM   #84
Beemerboff
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2005
Oddometer: 2,209
Good link to good information on NSK "Sealed Clean" TM transmission bearings.

Pity a few folks commented on the information in the link without actually reading it.

This information is completely unknown to the Airhead fraternity, including specialist suppliers and ,err, expert posters.

Everything I have ever read on airhead boxes refers to one rubber seal, and in a kit of bearing that I just had supplied by a BMW specialist the sealed bearing was just a 2RS bearing with one seal removed.

There is a list (1999) of sizes the Sealed Clean TM bearings were available in, in 1999, and a TM 304 is the one I should have received.

Hope your rebuild works out well, they are great little bikes when they are going well.
__________________
Adelaide Hills, Australia. 93 R100 GS, 77 R75/7 ,70 BSA B44VS, , 86 R80 G/S PD, 95 BMW Funduro F650 ST
Beemerboff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 02:20 PM   #85
biensur22
Gnarly Adventurer
 
biensur22's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Oddometer: 179
Another one?! You have a 650 obsession! Loved watching your last build so I'll be tuning in on this one as well. Good luck!

I know i'm coming in a little late, so I apologize for that.
biensur22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 05:23 PM   #86
divimon2000 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
divimon2000's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Lake Champlain, Vermont
Oddometer: 510
Glad you found us. This is a friends bike, and the plan is to get a riding partner in the same genre (has a ural now). And, learn from his engine expertise.
__________________
F650 GS 2001
F650 GS DAKAR 2002
at least one should be running
divimon2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 08:34 AM   #87
Spyker
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Oddometer: 186
Just to throw a spanner in the works, when I split the crankcases I wrote down the bearing numbers and got exactly the same bearings to replace them with. Some of the bearings I pulled from the crankcase had a rubber seal on the one side while the replacements with the same part numbers had rubber seals on both sides.

So to me it looks like they removed one of the seals when the assembled the engine at the factory. I did exactly the same, pulled one of the seals before I pressed it in. I figured there was a reason why BMW assembled it like that.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottie boy
If you calculated the money spent versus time actually used, vaginas cost more per hour than the space shuttle.
Spyker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:14 PM   #88
ericsbr
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: NY
Oddometer: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyker View Post
Just to throw a spanner in the works, when I split the crankcases I wrote down the bearing numbers and got exactly the same bearings to replace them with. Some of the bearings I pulled from the crankcase had a rubber seal on the one side while the replacements with the same part numbers had rubber seals on both sides.

So to me it looks like they removed one of the seals when the assembled the engine at the factory. I did exactly the same, pulled one of the seals before I pressed it in. I figured there was a reason why BMW assembled it like that.
any chance you have the part number and manufacturer of your bearings? it would be interesting to know what they used at that time.
ericsbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 08:32 PM   #89
Spyker
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Oddometer: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsbr View Post
any chance you have the part number and manufacturer of your bearings? it would be interesting to know what they used at that time.
I don't have my notes anymore but I do still have the old bearings. I will find the numbers for you.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottie boy
If you calculated the money spent versus time actually used, vaginas cost more per hour than the space shuttle.
Spyker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 12:16 PM   #90
divimon2000 OP
Studly Adventurer
 
divimon2000's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Lake Champlain, Vermont
Oddometer: 510
Back at it soon

We'll be back on this project Friday. All the parts are in and the schedule is clear for a few days. Get ready.
__________________
F650 GS 2001
F650 GS DAKAR 2002
at least one should be running
divimon2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 05:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014