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Old 03-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #91
Flyinace1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/744/15...reamliner.aspx

New streamliner used to showcase the new engine.
Well that gives me some hope that Polaris is taking Indian in the right direction and not right back to the over-sized fully dressed expensive bikes Indian has been making
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:37 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
What is that supposed to mean?

HD and cruisers ARE the market in the USA. Everything else is a niche.
In the world-wide market, America is a niche. I was hoping we would have an American motorcycle that could compete in the rest of the world. BTW, an actuarial table predicts deaths in a given population. Seen many cruiser riders without gray beards & atherosclerosis lately?
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:48 PM   #93
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I'm getting really excited for the new Indian... Been working on parts for it all week at work
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:56 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Jim K. View Post
In the world-wide market, America is a niche. I was hoping we would have an American motorcycle that could compete in the rest of the world.
USA is the biggest market for large displacement street motorcycles. If you want to count everything from 50cc and up, well that's a different story.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim K. View Post
BTW, an actuarial table predicts deaths in a given population. Seen many cruiser riders without gray beards & atherosclerosis lately?
No shit. Well, when it's a mortality table for insurance companies. Of course an actuarial can be any statistical table.

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Old 03-12-2013, 08:59 PM   #95
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BTW, an actuarial table predicts deaths in a given population. Seen many cruiser riders without gray beards & atherosclerosis lately?
I don't know what it's like were you live but there are a lot of young riders on cruisers out here in California and I'm talking all the way down to early 20s, probably even late teens. I put 20,000 miles on my cruiser in less than a year. Go on a college campus sometime and look at what type of motorcycles are there, I can tell you I've never seen a GS or any other "real" bike there (no offense meant). Precious few versys or vstroms. When I worked at Disneyland it was the same, even with the people who rode daily.
Indian's big market for years now has been the U.S. and I doubt that's gonna change now. It's hard to break into another market. Look at KTM as they try to get into the street market, it's been taking them years and you still don't see many of their street bikes on the streets. KTM has a large dealer network, are known around the world for making good bikes and are competitively priced. What does Indian have going for them? They are known to be expensive, meant for looking at not really riding, a long rich history and being replicas since the original went bankrupt in 53.
Indian at the moment doesn't offer much so to be trying to tackle another market would be a bold and tough move on Polaris's part, especially if it was outside the U.S.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:22 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinace1 View Post
Indian at the moment doesn't offer much so to be trying to tackle another market would be a bold and tough move on Polaris's part, especially if it was outside the U.S.
Because the brand has nothing now except name recognition, Polaris has only to make a new bike worthy of the name (which they have the means to do) and price it ballpark in line with the Motor Company, and they will do well, IMO.

They're not going after a new market, just a piece of the cruiser market, which is huge. I think this is a great move for Polaris - very smart. There's only so much they can do with the Victory name.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:01 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Krasniewski View Post
Because the brand has nothing now except name recognition, Polaris has only to make a new bike worthy of the name (which they have the means to do) and price it ballpark in line with the Motor Company, and they will do well, IMO.

They're not going after a new market, just a piece of the cruiser market, which is huge. I think this is a great move for Polaris - very smart. There's only so much they can do with the Victory name.
I partially agree with you. I think it was a little stupid to add a second cruiser line to the lineup, especially considering how well Victory is making a name for themselves and their high sells.
As for Indian I'm not sure how strong their name is now, it's a brand who's golden years ended in the 50s. Only a few years ago before I became a rider I didn't even think Indian still made motorcycles, that's not very good for a brand. IMO Polaris would need to make a bike that will bring the Indian name back from just being a replica brand.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:22 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinace1 View Post
I partially agree with you. I think it was a little stupid to add a second cruiser line to the lineup, especially considering how well Victory is making a name for themselves and their high sells.
As for Indian I'm not sure how strong their name is now, it's a brand who's golden years ended in the 50s. Only a few years ago before I became a rider I didn't even think Indian still made motorcycles, that's not very good for a brand. IMO Polaris would need to make a bike that will bring the Indian name back from just being a replica brand.
I don't think Victory is really taking off. Smart move for Polaris to try something else in a slightly different direction. I really would like to see the bikes.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:29 PM   #99
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I don't think Victory is really taking off. Smart move for Polaris to try something else in a slightly different direction. I really would like to see the bikes.
14 years down the road and you'd think they'd be building/selling more bikes than they do.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:10 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
14 years down the road and you'd think they'd be building/selling more bikes than they do.
I concur. The best estimates are about 10,000 a year. HD sold 235,000 in 2011. Victory will not release their sales figures.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:12 AM   #101
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Here it is mostly cruisers and crotch rockets. A lot of young people ride cruisers, but they are mostly Japanese. Harleys dominate big time, but it's usually older people that ride them. I'm pretty sure the difference is mostly financial. Young people cannot afford Harleys, but they can afford a used Honda Shadow. Harleys are ridden by more affluent older people who have the discretionary income to buy one. I don't see cruisers going anywhere, but if Harley intends to survive, they need to become more readily available to younger people. Maybe a Sportster 250?

The really expensive cruisers will never sell in large numbers. There just aren't enough people that want them that can afford to buy them. Like I said before, if Polaris came out with a $15K Indian, it would probably sell. Not many will sell at twice that or more.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:23 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
What is that supposed to mean?

HD and cruisers ARE the market in the USA. Everything else is a niche.
Perhaps. There sure have been a fuckton of scooters sold lately. It would be nice if a body like the MIC would publish numbers with something more granular than "on-road bikes" as a category.


Something like this UK data:

Code:
UNITED KINGDOM
2002 MOTORCYCLE MARKET ANALYSIS from the Motorcycle Industry
Association
http://www.iic.de/downloads/pdf/service-auto/Motorcycle_Industry.pdf
(I'm not sure though if this is just really UK info... the site went
down for maintenance so I couldn't check.)

MOPEDS        Dec 2001 /Dec 2002 /To date 2001 /To date 2002 /2001
Total
Moped 
Scooters 	1,969 	1,940 	40,096 	31,894 	40,096 
Moped 
Others 	          297 	481 	5,309 	4,219 	5,309
TOTAL 
MOPEDS 	        2,266 	2,421 	45,405 	36,113  45,405

MOTORCYCLES 
Adventure 
Sport 	        154 	115	3,406 	2,944 	3,406
Custom 	        309 	330 	7,984 	8,285 	7,984
Scooter 	1,428 	1,621 	32,200 	28,761 	32,200
Sport/
Touring 	602 	611 	17,499 	18,283 	17,499
Supersport 	1,072 	994 	32,624 	31,311 	32,624
Touring 	148 	241 	3,895 	5,039  	3,895
Traditional     804     639 	19,158 	18,483 	19,158
Trail/Enduro    432 	613 	7,131 	9,212  	7,131
TOTAL 
MOTORCYCLES 4,949 	5,164 	123,897 122,318 123,897
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:58 PM   #103
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Perhaps. There sure have been a fuckton of scooters sold lately. It would be nice if a body like the MIC would publish numbers with something more granular than "on-road bikes" as a category.
In the USA, "large displacement street bikes" is usually noted as 651cc and larger.

Since we're talking Indian Chief in this thread, that's the only segment that matters.

49cc scooters? Who cares if 10-Million per year are sold in the 3rd world?

I know I don't.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #104
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I concur. The best estimates are about 10,000 a year. HD sold 235,000 in 2011. Victory will not release their sales figures.
It's not exactly fair to compare a company 14 yrs old to one that is 110 yrs old. Victory has dared to compete directly with Harely and break the common cruiser look. They were also reporting sales up, in the middle of the recession. I'm not at all saying they are the best company out there, but they are doing pretty good for a new company and I'm curious to see how Polaris makes the Indian and Victory stand apart from each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Here it is mostly cruisers and crotch rockets. A lot of young people ride cruisers, but they are mostly Japanese. Harleys dominate big time, but it's usually older people that ride them. I'm pretty sure the difference is mostly financial. Young people cannot afford Harleys, but they can afford a used Honda Shadow. Harleys are ridden by more affluent older people who have the discretionary income to buy one. I don't see cruisers going anywhere, but if Harley intends to survive, they need to become more readily available to younger people. Maybe a Sportster 250?

The really expensive cruisers will never sell in large numbers. There just aren't enough people that want them that can afford to buy them. Like I said before, if Polaris came out with a $15K Indian, it would probably sell. Not many will sell at twice that or more.
That seems pretty spot on to me of the American cruiser market, and a $15k Indian would probably be more competitive in the cruiser market.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:26 PM   #105
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It's not exactly fair to compare a company 14 yrs old to one that is 110 yrs old.
OK. Compare Victory to Triumph.

The "New Triumph" started selling bikes about 20 years ago.

-Triumph builds/sells three times the number of bikes as Victory.
-Triumph has a full range of models.
-Triumph sells as many bikes in the USA as Victory's total production.

Polaris has been floundering with Victory. They've been floundering because they've focused too much on the "custom cruiser" segment with premium-priced machines that don't measure up, in the consumers' eyes, to Harley Davidson.

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