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Old 12-18-2012, 10:42 AM   #31
Dirty bike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Daniel View Post
Take for instance a gun dealer who bought guns and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo twenty years ago

And then let their license expire without ever filing paperwork on such
Fail. The dealer would have been required by the BATF to send in their bound book and a 4473 form for each weapon they transfered from the dealer inventory to their personal inventory when the license expired and the 'business' was closed. Just letting the license expire w/o doing what I described would trigger a call from, and often a subsequent visit from the BATF at that time to ensure these procedures were complied with.

What the former dealer did with the firearms and ammo after that is moot, subject only to the state and federal laws concerning a private transaction. But those firearms would always be traceable to that dealer. A large quantity would be a red flag and it would be a Good Thing™ for the former dealer to have paper on any sales, at least indicating some effort to show where those firearms went. A lack of that, may in some courts be enough to create a liability to the former dealer. Read that as a potential lawsuit filed by some grieving family against the former dealer for negligence. Who knows how that would turn out in today's climate?
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #32
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Guns

My two cents...Guns laws are as useless as much of our government. Look at our drugs laws. That stopped drug use . We have as many guns laws as we do guns and we see how that is working out . I am in the camp with those that are for making people responsible for their actions again. I know not very sexy. I see this as similar to terrorism and the creation of the TSA.

When the terrorist struck on 911 with the 4 planes, our Government was useless to save us. However by the 4th plane the American citizen had the answer. They acted and finished highjacking as we knew it. Since then it has been the people on the planes no longer putting up with BS on a plane and have since stopped any attempts since then. TSA another useless government solution to a problem that the people had already solved. As has been mentioned before, give the power back to the people, the teachers. People who are armed to defend themselves have never seen the type of mass killings we see now with reasonable people made defenseless by bad laws.

Sure anyone can always kill someone else whether with a gun or a knife. However, if people are allowed to defend themselves, they will not be able to kill many.

Put me in the camp that understands that guns are to protect us from our stupid government

OK, so maybe that was 3 cents
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dirty bike View Post
Fail. The dealer would have been required by the BATF to send in their bound book and a 4473 form for each weapon they transfered from the dealer inventory to their personal inventory when the license expired and the 'business' was closed. Just letting the license expire w/o doing what I described would trigger a call from, and often a subsequent visit from the BATF at that time to ensure these procedures were complied with.

Yes, Once the FFL expires the bound book must be sent along with 4473's Any and all firearms transferred to/from inventory under the FFL to the owner must have 4473's and logged in and out of the bound book. ANY serial numbers logged in MUST be logged out with a 4473 containing detailed information.

Also any Dealer Sample guns under NFA must be transferred to another NFA dealer. They can not transfer to any private citizen including the current dealer. Post '86 guns must remain in the "dealer network" meaning they can not be owned by a non dealer in any way, shape, or form. IANAL, YMMV, TANSTAAFL, etc...
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You shoulda told me to do this a long time ago
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:18 PM   #34
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Fail. The dealer would have been required by the BATF to send in their bound book and a 4473 form for each weapon they transfered from the dealer inventory to their personal inventory when the license expired and the 'business' was closed.


Goes to show you the guvment don't always do its job
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:25 PM   #35
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I've gave some thought on this particular school shooting. If the mother had these guns locked in a gun safe the murders would have been stopped., but not true, he killed her and could have beat her with a baseball bat until she gave him the combo. gunsafe endall not valid.

I don't own an "assult rifle" but I own few pistols that could be labled assult pistols. Just because they are owned does not dictate how they will be used.

I am all for responsible parties carrying concealed at all times. If you ever see me at a restaurant out to eat, rest assured I have your back. 911 is after the fact, bring the body bags the bad guys have already won.

If responsible teachers (people in all walks of life) carried on the job and ran toward a problem instead away from it, which I believe most ccw people would we could stem these shootings in the bud. ( I have carried at work in New haven, ct) even though it did not stop my car getting stolen twice. I'm a firm believer it would have saved my life if it had come to that.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:25 PM   #36
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Goes to show you the guvment don't always do its job
Can't deny that. My regional ATF guys were, shall we say, more assertive. Generally were good to work/deal with back in that time frame before the huge surge in FFLs to people that didn't have shops.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:33 PM   #37
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If responsible teachers (people in all walks of life) carried on the job and ran toward a problem instead away from it, which I believe most ccw people would we could stem these shootings in the bud.
I'm with you, but most of my former employers did not share that belief. Most had company policies that banned CCW and 'weapons' on company premises, including the parking lot. I.E. Not even locked in your car was acceptable, and all were termination offense if caught. Considering most of the management's treatment of the employees, they had reason to fear us. And trying to explain that a dis-gruntled employee was not going to give a s*#t about the company policy was clearly going over their heads. Didn't care, couldn't grasp the concept. A sad parallel to gun control in general.

The one exception was a firearms manufacturer. We were some polite sumbitches too! Everybody carried. Zero issues in the several years I worked there too.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:42 PM   #38
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Let's go after the real problem. The modern thug mentality that is now accepted by most. In law enforcement it's called the normalization of deviant behavior.

Children sit on they're butts all day watching the NBA and NFL thugs, watching Quinton Terentino movies, playing the most violent video games, and have maybe one parent at home tellng them that they are perfect. Have you ever compared the morons that do these shootings? Why do all seem alike? The parents aren't doing they're jobs, the teachers aren't allowed to, and law enforcement has it's hands tied by these monster's civil rights.

Guns are not to blame, they just make it easier for criminals to commit crimes. You could walk to work if you want to but, driving your car makes it's a lot easier. Sorry if it's a weak analogy but it's all I got. And sorry about my grammar and spelling.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:58 PM   #39
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Against my better judgement, I'll chime in. My $0.02:

I'm a gun owner, fairly liberal on social issues, fairly conservative on fiscal issues. I listen to NPR. Since the tragedy, they have been filling the airwaves with expert after expert selling misinformation, trying to capitalize on the current mass mental state. It sickens me. let the victims rest and make your case some other ways. Some of the "facts" brought up:

Assault weapons, military grade weapons - nope, last I checked an assault rifle was a full auto device, not available in a gun store.
Armor piercing bullets - last I checked were not available at a gun store.
Stricter laws mean safer cities - right Chicago is a haven.
States with more regulation have lower crime rate - okay, take Cali and NH. Cali has more gun violence per capita than NH or VT. NH has very friendly gun laws, and VT has almost no gun laws. I cannot think of a single house in my neighborhood that does not own a gun. Last shooting crime in my town - can't even find one.

Gun prohibition - will never work. With so many in private hands, transferred so many times, there is no way to trace them all.
Ammo prohibition - how many shooters reload. Again, will not work.
Bullet casing microstamping - will trace the weapon used, but will not stop crazy, suicidal people.
Gun show loophole - what is it? Last time I went to a gun show, everyone had to have a background check.

In this instance, it was a combination of state and parenting failure. State failed to secure mentally unstable person, either due to lack of funding, interest, or protection of privacy. parent made a gross error (which she paid for with her own life) by teaching her mentally unstable child how to shoot. WTF?
The aftermath is horrible, and all sides are scratching their heads for explanations. No law, ever, will prevent a suicidal person from hurting themselves or from hurting others, as long as they are not locked up in a mental facility.

Parenting, in my humble opinion, is the key. Parents need to teach their kids right from wrong, spend time with their kids, pay attention to behavioral patterns, and take appropriate actions, instead of dumping their problems on schools, government, and society. If you want to have kids, you have to take care of them, and that means much more than roof over theirs heads, food, and clothes.

Sorry to cross region lines and post here. But, this is the one civil discussion here.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:34 PM   #40
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Sorry to cross region lines and post here. But, this is the one civil discussion here.
It is that, Henry. But notice that one reason for the abiding civility is that most voices here are speaking from very much the same page.

I've dropped into CS&M today and the name callers and shit-slingers seem to have moved on (or been weeded to Head S'plody) leaving a more spirited, multi-faceted conversation. Some good, ranging dialogue down there about interpreting 2A. I'm not sure we could have such a dialogue down here.

And as far as All Populace All Carry All The Time (APACATT?? ) , well that's right out. There's no way in fuck-all i want some of my colleagues carrying at work or ever
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:52 PM   #41
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I'm a Canadian, not a hunter and never owned a gun. So I don't have a very broad perspective on the issue.
But I do question why automatic and semi automatic weapons capable of firing hundreds or rounds are needed by an average citizen.
Wouldn't it make sense, at least as a way to help prevent some horrific crimes, to restrict or control the sale of these weapons and their required ammunition and magazines?

Ding ding ding. You have no more need for a gun that holds 30-plus rounds than you do for a 150 hp dirt bike. Even wack job Republicans are starting to come around to that idea. A ban on assault rifles is not a ban on hunting, no matter what the NRA says.

I say ban KTMs!
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:59 PM   #42
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And let just add that personally, the notion of curbing violence in schools, malls, theaters … wherever … bu further arming the people who work there makes me cringe. I'd rather not send my kids to school in an armed police state. A lot of people shop at Walmart. It'd make a tasty target. You want Walmart employees packing heat?
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:05 PM   #43
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I don't have a dog in this fight as I a) don't own a gun (though I do have a concealed weapons permit, long story) and b) no intentions to own a gun. My personal opinion is that any legislation coming from this latest mass shooting is not going to do a whole lot, except create just more of a paper trail and confusing interpretations of said legislation.

I'm slightly more liberal on most issues, so right away, most of my friends, and students, automatically assume I'm a "tree loving hippy." The potential ban on assault rifles and high capacity rounds seems to be a slight knee-jerk reaction. There's still a huge black market for it, so just saying "hey, we banned them!" won't really do a whole lot. Just look at the current marijuana issues (it's banned by the federal government, but by god, I can go to Colorado and light up like it were an electric cigarette).

If they want to really get down to the nitty gritty issue, then start considering how we treat mentally ill persons in this country and their rights to any type of exposure to firearms. Then, maybe we can start to make some headway in preventing complete psychos from blowing heads off like they were can pop-tops.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:07 PM   #44
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You want Walmart employees packing heat?
Packin' Workers of WalMart-- the delightful companion to People of WalMart.

Pass!
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:21 PM   #45
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interpreting 2A.
This, I feel, is where things begin to divide. Many years ago things were written by men much smarter than I will ever be. I fear that their work, when opened to interpretation, is where we sway from the meaning of the document. This was the foundation of our country. A foundation on which to build. Not to be moved a little left, or right depending on who had fewer hanging chads. Not a general book of guidelines to be used to forward ones own feelings on any one matter. It was clearly written, and to say that this, or that no longer applies is to wad this entire Great Experiment up and start over.

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You shoulda told me to do this a long time ago
My bad

Buzztail screwed with this post 12-18-2012 at 03:32 PM
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