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Old 12-19-2012, 07:40 PM   #76
Kommando
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Originally Posted by 568V8 View Post
I'm a Canadian, not a hunter and never owned a gun. So I don't have a very broad perspective on the issue.
But I do question why automatic and semi automatic weapons capable of firing hundreds or rounds are needed by an average citizen.
So that "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state" can still be possible. 'Don't think a basic grunt with a firearm can be much of a problem for a potential oppressor? Newsflash: We STILL haven't wiped out Al Quaeda, or even the Taliban, and they don't have nearly the military assets that our first-world governments do.

Oppression can also come in forms other than just governments. There are people who are afraid to leave their homes. There are people who are afraid INSIDE their homes. They are oppressed by the predators of their societies, because they have no viable means of protecting themselves.

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Wouldn't it make sense, at least as a way to help prevent some horrific crimes, to restrict or control the sale of these weapons and their required ammunition and magazines?
How so? In most places, sales are already restricted or controlled in some way. It does little to stop people that are determined to hurt others. If we look back at similar horrific crimes, I'd bet that the vast majority of them occurred in places where firearms were a LOT more restricted than someplace like, say...backcountry Arizona. The vast majority of them occurred someplace like a school, a government bldg, etc.,...someplace that probably even had signs at the entrances that firearms were strictly prohibited.

As far as autos, semi-autos, high-capacity magazines, and the like...What difference does it make? I've fired many thousands of rounds through various auto-capable and semi-auto-capable firearms. If I want to be quick and accurate at hitting the point targets that I want to, I fire semi-auto...a trigger pull is required for every round going out the barrel. I can swap magazines in less than 2 seconds if I'm practiced up. There are people who are WAY quicker with putting large numbers of accurate rounds on target...using a simple 6-shooter revolver and some speedloaders. A lot of unbelievable skills can be developed simply through determination, focus, and practice. Somebody truly intent on hurting others will find a way...unless somebody that is ready, willing, and able to surprise/stop them is there.

The DC sniper(s) of a few years ago fired only one or maybe two rounds at a time, yet (t)he(y) racked up quite a few victims and worldwide notoriety while creating widespread fear and panic along the mid-Atlantic coast.

People string wire and other things across trails/roads at neck height, sometimes causing serious harm to others.

People beat/stab/choke each other to death every year. Some people use their car. Some people use fire, explosives, poison, or other means to kill.

Would you propose to take away a means of law-abiding citizens to defend themselves from somebody who is actively committing such a crime against others? The deadly criminals will ALWAYS find a way to be deadly. Look at DC. Look at Chicago. Look at NYC. Did ANY of their gun laws work to wipe out crimes involving the use of a deadly weapon? Why do people call the police when a violent crime is being witnessed anyway? I'm guessing it's because the police typically HAVE FIREARMS. WHY do the police have firearms? I'm guessing it's because there are some nasty people out there in the world that cannot be reasoned with, bargained with, paid off, diplomatically dissuaded, or physically restrained without serious increased risk of physical harm to the officers or other people in the vicinity. In Chicago, law-abiding citizens were pretty much un-armed for many years. Response time in a city like Chicago is usually measured in minutes. Where my mom lives, it could be HOURS. Why would you want to be un-armed there?
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:22 PM   #77
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Let's make note that the Supreme Justices have stated several times that Law Enforcement Officers are not required to protect the individual. Even if that individual has a restraining order.
Let's also take in to consideration that LEOs usually show up after the incident happens.

If you consider someone with fire insurance, hurricane insurance, auto insurance, flood insurance, ect insurance as an afraid individual, then Okay, I'll accept that concept.
But, I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:02 AM   #78
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I honestly don't know what the solution is to these tragedies. The US has more gun violence per person than any other western industrialized country (USA, Canada, Europe, Japan, Oz, etc.). After this, there are a number of facts which contradict the dogma on both sides of this issue. Consider...

Canada has at least as many guns per person as we do, but only a small fraction of the gun violence. If the cause is too many guns in the US, then why isn't Canada having the same level of violence?

The US is easily the most religious country among the peers I named, but has way, way more gun violence. If more religion is the answer, then why don't the UK and France, which are nearly atheist countries by comparison, have the gun violence problem we do?

Canada watches the same TV, movies, and video games we do. Why aren't they shooting each other? Drive a couple hours from Seattle to Vancouver and you're essentially in the same city and culture but your odds of being shot drop to almost nothing. Why?

I'm stumped.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:22 AM   #79
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I honestly don't know what the solution is to these tragedies. The US has more gun violence per person than any other western industrialized country (USA, Canada, Europe, Japan, Oz, etc.). After this, there are a number of facts which contradict the dogma on both sides of this issue. Consider...

Canada has at least as many guns per person as we do, but only a small fraction of the gun violence. If the cause is too many guns in the US, then why isn't Canada having the same level of violence?

The US is easily the most religious country among the peers I named, but has way, way more gun violence. If more religion is the answer, then why don't the UK and France, which are nearly atheist countries by comparison, have the gun violence problem we do?

Canada watches the same TV, movies, and video games we do. Why aren't they shooting each other? Drive a couple hours from Seattle to Vancouver and you're essentially in the same city and culture but your odds of being shot drop to almost nothing. Why?

I'm stumped.
Every Canadian I've known could drink me under the table while playing hockey. I think that's it.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:21 AM   #80
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Trying to get back on topic, The changes that could be made imo would be an instacheck like we have now for crriminal history , but it needs to also include mental history. ex. attempted suicides and the cases expressed by the mother in the anarchist thread. The only problem is would this history be wiped clean at age 18 because he or she is a minor.


The other thing is the private second hand gun market. Every sale needs to have some kind of criminal background check done or the sale between 2 ccw holders.

If you have a disturbed sibling picked up by the new instacheck another class teaching the proper storage in a gun vault would be mandatory.

I was watching piers morgan last nite. First time I ever saw him. To put it mildly, I don't care for the man. Alot of statements have been made that the nra has been very quiet so far. I'm guessing it is out of respect and thinking about and coming upwith some new ideas from careful thought and not just knee jerk reactions saying confiscation of all semi-auto weapons. News release is on fri.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Philip Kuntz View Post
Well said, Kelly. And Ted and George, thanks for posting that stuff, Hatch.

You folks living in your gun-free utopia, good for you. But why do you come here? Are you looking to understand us better, or trying to get us to think like you? I can assure you that the latter will never happen, and I don't think you will ever understand either.
Gun free utopia. Maybe, I came because understanding this cultural difference would make me larger in wisdom. Regarding that we never could make you think like "us" isnīt my goal. Why should I. I think you sound hostile or maybe we just speak different(cultures). I did not enter the debate with the thought of being the better person.

I do not have any solutions for this shooting incident. Itīs a tragedy and i canīt stand see those teddybears outside the school. Iīm stunned.
It is not only gun control but way more deep in your culture/school/education/healthcare you maybe would find the solution. Gun control is just one step of many to reach political goals regarding lifting social inheritance. The evolution of culture is dependent on the evolution of social learning. If not this is attended I think your gun policy could be the Nemesis.

But as i never have lived in US and is grown up in fluffy Denmark, I may not understand this lust for protecting.

I should probably stick to my bike.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:40 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by kelly duke 2000 View Post
Alot of statements have been made that the nra has been very quiet so far. I'm guessing it is out of respect and thinking about and coming upwith some new ideas from careful thought and not just knee jerk reactions saying confiscation of all semi-auto weapons. News release is on fri.
Completely accurate-
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:44 PM   #83
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political goals regarding lifting social inheritance.
not sure what you mean here, could you elaborate?

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Originally Posted by LocuL View Post
The evolution of culture is dependent on the evolution of social learning..
Now this I agree with - the problem cannot and will not be addressed by any laws regarding guns - the problems in this country are certainly seated much deeper in our culture (or lack thereof)
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:54 PM   #84
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But as i never have lived in US and is grown up in fluffy Denmark, I may not understand this lust for protecting.

I should probably stick to my bike.
Give us you number in the event we decide we want to build a wooden ship with one sail or pay 60% in taxes...
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:01 PM   #85
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A irresponsible parent decides to be her mentally unstable son's friend instead of a parent and gives him access to instruments that are very dangerous in the wrong hands and now over two dozen people are dead.
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:37 PM   #86
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I think Wayne said all there needs to be said in today's press conference. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.




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Old 12-21-2012, 06:48 PM   #87
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This guy was definitely into 2A freedoms:




'resisting Tyranny' gets slippery, no?
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:58 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Rob Dirt View Post
If you restrict the amount of ammo per mag, then people will just buy more mags. Why make it illegal for me to own a 33 round clip? I'll just buy three 10 round clips. What's the difference, 2 seconds?

I still believe that everybody should have a gun at all times. Every mass shooting would have fewer victims.
I have to clarify...I see this misused all the time. A clip is used in a rifle like the Garand. Casings are exposed.

The enclosed ammo dispensing device an AR or Glock uses is a magazine.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:18 PM   #89
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I have to clarify...I see this misused all the time. A clip is used in a rifle like the Garand. Casings are exposed.

The enclosed ammo dispensing device an AR or Glock uses is a magazine.
Not germane to the argument/discussion, Smithy. Everyone down here knows exactly WTF is meant by 'clip' and 'mag'. Quit parsing terms and offer some ideas, sir
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:26 PM   #90
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Not germane to the argument/discussion, Smithy. Everyone down here knows exactly WTF is meant by 'clip' and 'mag'. Quit parsing terms and offer some ideas, sir
The gosh darn Germans got nothing to do with it!
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