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Old 02-09-2014, 11:22 AM   #1
Wraith Rider OP
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low power riders & high power riders

We had some discussion recently. Now for several reasons I want to start a new thread. Not comparing bikes and not judging by what's faster or better. Oh and I'm talking on pavement here.

First I want to thank klaviator. It was pleasurable to discuss with you in the other threads. You didn't take anything personal - and didn't try to insult, stayed calm and lightened up the discussion with experience and pictures.

Back to topic. I still have to tell you what the topic is, eh? We talked about big and small bikes, about ADV and street bikes, about riding the slow bikes fast and the fast bikes... well there we couldn't come to a conclusion.

There were some insights what's it about these slow bikes.
- have to work the clutch
- forced to keep the speed through the corner
- don't have to worry about law enforcement
- less tiring
- easier to control the power out of the corner

To me there are two major points: Skill and comfort.
In the skill compartment there is that it needs skill to change gears and keep the speed.
In the comfort compartment there is the law enforcement, that it's less tiring and easier throttle control.

Now have a look at my side:
- don't like to work the clutch
- brake into the corner and accelerate out of it
- having to keep in mind LEOs
- harder workout
- have to be gentle on the throttle

So we have two compartments as well, skill and comfort.
Skill: Braking and Accelerating, LEOs, more tiring, throttle control
Comfort: clutchlessness (for me personally the clutch point is a bit more and would take another thread to talk about completely)


So my question is:
What is it, that to need some of these skills is considered fun and to need others is not? Why is the one combination of skill and comfort considered to be pleasurable and the other combination is considered to be boring?
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:49 AM   #2
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I've manhandled many large bikes around corners in a very fast fashion that were not meant to be "fast" bikes. (like my 1992 GSX1100G)
And enjoyed the sparks show at night that the beast left behind that would scare the shit out of a few tailing riders on sport bikes.

I've also enjoyed my mid-weight DR650's on tight twisty roads with the same groups of guys, who couldn't believe I could lead them anywhere (and stay ahead of them) on tight and twisty, bumpy backroads on a "stupid single"

Now I'm older and enjoying the hell out of a little TU250X that simply has no limitations for lean angles or power applied while leaning over (clean corners and smooth roads permitting).

All in all, I have to say, I'm currently having more fun on my 250 using the skills I've learned on the bigger bikes over the years, to maintain speeds through some really tough corners at WOT with 1/2 the fear my old GSX 1100G inspired, at a much higher level of speed.

I don't think it's possible to give you a valid answer, as motorcycles mean different things to different people and that will always lead to differences of opinion as to what's most important.

What's important to me is stability in corners, more than anything else, as that allows me to carry more speed through the turns with confidence.
What I need for my perfect bike, would be the one no one makes...Crap today is just too damn specialized for my needs.

If I could have a DRZ250S with 30hp, I feel that the suspensions ability to handle rough roads at lean and the light flick able weight, combined with dirt-bike stable geometry and 18/21 tires so sliding would be a non issue on filthy roads...I could have as much fun as any sane human needs, ANYWHERE!

As for being faster than that guy on a 750 GSXR, who cares? I only need to be fast enough to keep myself entertained.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:53 AM   #3
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There are no right or wrong bikes, just different bikes.


Each rider has a different physical and mental makeup.
What's fun or boring for you might not be for me.

Example of different bikes on the same ride.

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Old 02-09-2014, 11:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by rivercreep View Post
All in all, I have to say, I'm currently having more fun on my 250 using the skills I've learned on the bigger bikes over the years
That's surprising. Most of the time there's the talk about the skills learned on small bikes, not the big ones.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
That's surprising. Most of the time there's the talk about the skills learned on small bikes, not the big ones.
A funny thing happens as you grow older and gain skills; you find you know exactly where your limits are on the bikes you ride so you know just how hard you can push them

What I learned by saving my ass on that old GSX1100G countless times (as well as the 1100 Katana and DR650's) when they'd loose grip and slide...makes every outing on the little 250 ass pucker free, even when pushing it.
It's way easier (for me) to now have complete control over a smaller bike and push its limits, without exhausting myself. And then there's the fact that you MUST be smooth on a large bore bike so it doesn't spit you off.
Riding the smaller bike is now such a no-brainer, that it allows me to be much faster through corners (where most motorcyclists ride for fun) than I ever could on the more powerful bikes. (with no drama, not due to a lack of skills)
The only time I can't be faster on my little TU250X, is when the roads are bumpy or dirty (and you need suspension travel and knobbies) or you actually NEED power, because you're into strong headwinds or up hills.

An old 400CC Bandit with a D.S. suspension and tires would be a fucking rocket in my hands.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:12 PM   #6
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I'm not sure I agree with ya on the clutch work, if there is one thing I have noticed when I jumped from a SV650 to a V-strom 1000, was more clutch work, however a lot of my riding includes unimproved agricultural and forestry roads

and winter riding as well
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:23 PM   #7
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You're talking about the 0.5th gear, right?
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
You're talking about the 0.5th gear, right?
yes, with 1000ccs many times a quick slow speed maneuver is required, probably most often in 2nd gear, the simpler solution is to slip the clutch momentarily

however on the road, I agree, I don't shift as much with the 1000 as I did with the 650, hardly ever make it out of 4th gear
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:59 PM   #9
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One of the things I like about a less powerful bike is that it is much more fun to ride at a slower pace. I used to be all about going fast. I have slowed down as I have grown older but I still enjoy having fun on a twisty road. For me it's more about the feeling of going fast than actually going fast. If you and I rode down the same road at the same speed, you on your VFR and me on my 250cc Aprilia, I would feel like I was going faster, while you might be bored.

When I do want to go fast i am more interested in going fast in the curves rather than on the straights. Power usually doesn't affect cornering speed very much.

Here's a recent ride I went on that illustrates my point. I led a mixed group of riders on bikes ranging from 250cc to 1700cc. I would either have been bored on a fast bike, or been riding by myself and having to wait at every intersection. Furthermore, the point of this ride was more to enjoy the scenery rather than go fast.

Here's the link with pics and video: http://bamarides.com/ride/planned-ri...urday-2114/30/

I do plan on getting a bike that is more powerful than anything I currently have but that will put my back in the position of having to worry more about getting tickets. When I say more powerful, I'm still talking about a bike with less than 100 HP and under 500lbs.
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:20 PM   #10
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OK, another example, this time sticking to sport bikes.

This was my first sport bike:



Not considered all that sporty today but it was cutting edge in 1984.

I mainly rode it in Southern California. I rode with other sport bike riders and seldom went for a ride without getting over 100 MPH.

It was a lot of work to go fast on. I rode some of my friends bikes such as VFR750 and Ninja 750 and they handled much better.

So I replaced it with this:



I was a little concerned that I would miss the power of my FJ but it turned out that I was way faster on the EX. I ran away from riders I had to work to keep up with on the FJ.

What was the biggest difference between the bikes.

It was mainly this. The EX was so easy to ride fast on that I had much more confidence in it.

One of the high points with my EX came when I was riding with a friend who had a FZR1000. His rear tire had no chicken strips on them. I passed him then pulled away while going up Palomar Mountain

I could never have done that on the FJ.
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
The EX was so easy to ride fast on that I had much more confidence in it.
Officially, you are not allowed to have fun, or be fast on smaller & less powerful bikes on this thread.

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Old 02-09-2014, 03:56 PM   #12
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The size and power of a man's road ride, tends to be inversely proportional to what he has between his legs.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj Mick View Post
The size and power of a man's road ride, tends to be inversely proportional to what he has between his legs.
I have a 100HP Ninja and a 10HP Honda Grom, what do you conclude?
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
We had some discussion recently. Now for several reasons I want to start a new thread. Not comparing bikes and not judging by what's faster or better. Oh and I'm talking on pavement here.

First I want to thank klaviator. It was pleasurable to discuss with you in the other threads. You didn't take anything personal - and didn't try to insult, stayed calm and lightened up the discussion with experience and pictures.

Back to topic. I still have to tell you what the topic is, eh? We talked about big and small bikes, about ADV and street bikes, about riding the slow bikes fast and the fast bikes... well there we couldn't come to a conclusion.

There were some insights what's it about these slow bikes.
- have to work the clutch
- forced to keep the speed through the corner
- don't have to worry about law enforcement
- less tiring
- easier to control the power out of the corner

To me there are two major points: Skill and comfort.
In the skill compartment there is that it needs skill to change gears and keep the speed.
In the comfort compartment there is the law enforcement, that it's less tiring and easier throttle control.

Now have a look at my side:
- don't like to work the clutch
- brake into the corner and accelerate out of it
- having to keep in mind LEOs
- harder workout
- have to be gentle on the throttle

So we have two compartments as well, skill and comfort.
Skill: Braking and Accelerating, LEOs, more tiring, throttle control
Comfort: clutchlessness (for me personally the clutch point is a bit more and would take another thread to talk about completely)


So my question is:
What is it, that to need some of these skills is considered fun and to need others is not? Why is the one combination of skill and comfort considered to be pleasurable and the other combination is considered to be boring?
i would not enjoy a motorcycle that was made to go far faster than I would ever ride it. I like making the most of a machine, not holding it back. And carrying the huge load of engine that is not useful- I have ridden some large, powerful machines, and the sensation of power is enjoyable, but the bigness, the heaviness, the planning and management, are not. i often wondered if many of the riders on huge torquey bikes chose the big engines because they didn't like to shift. Time for an automatic transmission. That is what they are for.
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:42 AM   #15
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I've always been a believer in "It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast, then a fast bike slow"

Some people consider the Guzzi for instance to be a big fast bike, She's quick YES, but let's face it.. with a top end of 134, She's not fast--at least not in this day and age with bikes that doe 150+ Easily--I've ridden ONE what I would consider to be a FAST bike. It was a 2012 ZX14--it was a comfortable bike, it was a BLAST to ride but it was just (Not to sound like a pansy here) but FOR ME it was WAY too much for the street, I mean SWEET 75MPH IN FIRST GEAR YEA! But with bikes like that it's hard to just hold back at 80, Not saying other folks don't like it I just personally don't care for it, 90% of the ZX14's owners probably will never put that engine to full use, as with any fast vehicle though so that's kinda moot point.

The Guzzi has more what I would call, Real-world power, Oh it's fast and quick enough to get me into trouble FAST, but it's also not so stupid fast that it leaves my head spinning wondering how the hell I got from 60-135 with just one flick of my wrist, Again this is all just my opinion of course.

As for the shifting thing, I didn't get a chance to take the ZX14 through corners, but compared to the KZ, the Guzzi shifts far less in corners IF IM JUST CRUISING, I shift A LOT if I'm in speedracer mode.
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