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Old 01-19-2013, 10:23 AM   #211
DAKEZ
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The number one single vehicle accident for all new and returning riders is blowing a corner because they "think" they are going too fast.

Anyone saying that teaching countersteering to these people is wrong is a Selfish ass and should before their words of wisdom gets some n00b hurt or killed.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:29 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
The number one single vehicle accident for all new and returning riders is blowing a corner because they "think" they are going to fast.

Anyone saying that teaching countersteering to these people is wrong is a Selfish ass and should before their words of wisdom gets some n00b hurt or killed.
Well said.
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:40 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valker View Post
During my investigation of many motorcycle crashes, the part of countersteering that I've noticed is that if you don't CONSCIOUSLY think about how to turn, in an emergency situation, your reactive brain will tell your muscles to do something to avoid death or injury. What it will tell most people is to steer the front wheel the way you want to go. Fully 75% of the crashes I've looked at where "lost control / went wide" resulted from the rider causing the bike to go the wrong direction while trying to turn or swerve which resulted in the crash.
The biggest issue with just 'riding like you know how' without the brain training (you training your own brain) is it usually results in causing the crash which is trying to be avoided. I've even investigated crashes where the bikes skid marks (braking errors too) went from their proper lane into the oncoming lane simply because they tried to steer when they swerved. Not stupid, but very ignorant of how the brain works under stress.
Yup, even teaching yourself proper counter-steering isn't enough for most people either. It needs to be practiced under stressful situations. Only relatively safe place for that is a race track (on or off-road) with people to help and a trained medical crew. If you ride smart you shouldn't need them... but shit happens.

Like I said in my earlier post I didn't know what counter-steering was for the first 12 years of my riding experience (17 if you include bicycles) and I rode and even raced just fine. I also started my motorcycle riding on motocross tracks where everything was performance riding under demanding conditions. There is a huge difference between track experience and street experience. They aren't even on the same planet with what it does for your riding skill. For normal street riding counter steering is only noticeable if you are seriously paying attention to doing it. The only times where I still KNOW that I'm deliberately counter steering is when I ride aggressive, or if I have to avoid something. You don't necessarily need to think about it but you will certainly be aware of it.

One big thing that helps in emergency or stressful situations is confidence and believing that you know what your doing. If you understand what counter-steering does on a motorcycle its easier for your brain to accept as the right move; so that's what it does without any second guessing. If your a bit uncomfortable or not sure of the concept than your almost guaranteed to get it wrong when it matters most.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:11 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by pretbek View Post
The biggest deal to me is people knowing that they push left to go left, push right to go right.
After that it is your choice how conscious you keep it in your everyday riding.

Against the "just ride" argument are the cases where people have been getting by for many years with steering by "leaning I that direction" (causing them to push-steer without knowing it). That works right up until the time that you need to maneuver really drastically. No amount of leaning is going to save you then.
THAT is when you need to know that you push hard to go in that direction.

But you don't need the physics definitions and all the calculations now, do you.

You know the learning process curve is significantly raised when a rider rides a bit more aggressively and usually starting on a small/midsize bike where you have to ride like that to keep up. They tend to gain, because they have to. It wasn't easy keeping up with those Z1s with my S3 (900 four stroke vs 400 two stroke), so I learned to ride a bit harder to keep up and pretty soon I was leading when in tighter winding roads where the horsepower didn't come in quite so handy.

That and the key point that the OP already realizes how to steer (via countersteering) from their bicycle experience.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:24 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valker View Post
During my investigation of many motorcycle crashes, the part of countersteering that I've noticed is that if you don't CONSCIOUSLY think about how to turn, in an emergency situation, your reactive brain will tell your muscles to do something to avoid death or injury. What it will tell most people is to steer the front wheel the way you want to go. Fully 75% of the crashes I've looked at where "lost control / went wide" resulted from the rider causing the bike to go the wrong direction while trying to turn or swerve which resulted in the crash.
The biggest issue with just 'riding like you know how' without the brain training (you training your own brain) is it usually results in causing the crash which is trying to be avoided. I've even investigated crashes where the bikes skid marks (braking errors too) went from their proper lane into the oncoming lane simply because they tried to steer when they swerved. Not stupid, but very ignorant of how the brain works under stress.

I haven't had to conciously think about steering on a motorcycle in over 40 years. You see I LEARNED how to ride. I INGRAINED the responses in to my instincts. When on a motorcycle I am RIDING A SINGLE TRACK VEHICLE, not a four wheel vehicle. I have different responses to the vehicle I am operating.

I also had the same skill to separate one vehicle from another when I rode both a motorcycle with right hand shift and one with left hand shift. It is rusty now, but wouldn't take long to bring back around.

Now you may ask, "Geez, how did you do that?"

I actually just plain rode. I wasn't some cruiser rider though. I started and learned mainly off road, but I also learned the road habits due to being a bit more aggressive rider and making the skills instinctive by repetitive actions. I just rode, just a bit harder and with some thought process at first, then eventually more and more by what could be called pure instinct. When it happens I act with minimal concious thought processing. Concious thought processing would take too long. I see, I know, I do. One great example actually does come from the off roading. I've had a few times when I've had the rear wheel step out on slow turns when the tire hits a bit of gravel or the like that blended in to the surface. I instinctively dab, put a foot down, to keep the bike from sliding out. It gets grip again and we're down the road. Less than a second to act, but it happens.

If a rider has to CONCIOUSLY THINK about steering or braking in a tight situation, they're screwed - and that's putting it mildly. The action has to happen faster than what is considered to be concious thought process, which means a bunch of reasoning. The reaction or action has to be without reasoning for the most part. It is a case of recognizing what is happening and acting, not taking time to reason out the actions. No time to think, " I want to turn right so I have to pull or push... " crunch.

Reaction has to be near instinctive otherwise valuable time and distance are lost.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:49 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
The number one single vehicle accident for all new and returning riders is blowing a corner because they "think" they are going too fast.

Anyone saying that teaching countersteering to these people is wrong is a Selfish ass and should before their words of wisdom gets some n00b hurt or killed.

Big difference between teaching countersteering and teaching countersteering science.

If I'm teaching someone countersteering I'm telling them exactly what you did in that one quote. Then we're going out and going to do so. One great method of practice is slaloming down the dotted centerline of a road. You aren't studying the science, you are doing. It's easy to describe and be an expert in the science, yet not know how to do it unless you simply do it. When they can do a weave like that intentionally at say 50 mph they're not thinking out every single move, they're just doing it. With that skill development they will have the capability to swerve with minimal thought time. It will just happen because the part of their brain that controls the actions knows how to do so without reasoning it out. (I.e., someone throws something at your head, you duck. You don't wait to analyze how to move your head, you learned that when young and throwing stuff at each other. You instinctively know if it hits you it might hurt you, so you duck.)

Again, the OP has countersteering experience, they can do it. Why make it a cluster with all the science if all it does is interfere? That seems to be the issue. When someone says they know they don't steer the motorcycle they're baffled with the BS (bike science). They just need to continue to do what they did on their bicycle.

I'm betting a lot of people perform a lot of actions like surfing, skiing, even running without knowing all the science of their actions. They simply learned how to do and continued to do. Can any of you describe the science of walking or running? Yet most here can both walk and run - once they learned and practiced. By the way, due to an injury I got to learn it all over again. Still can't tell you all that is involved from the science and all but I can walk fairly well and run to an extent.

I understand the whole accident thing where people react incorrectly. I'm betting very few of them were very aggressive riders in general they never actually learned how to act instinctively (or nearly so). They never learned to "bob and weave" to borrow a boxing term. That is one of the draw backs so many riders DON'T ever really learn to ride by pushing the envelope in a relatively safe progressive manner, then when they need the skill it isn't there. That is why there are performance riding schools put on by professionals who have previously taught racing skills, to give riders some performance skills on their custom/cruiser/tourer. Like when in a corner and in doubt - LEAN OVER FURTHER. Of course that also involves knowing your bike's clearance limits. Even the best roadracer can't easily overcome grounding out the frame. Another skill is that you CAN take a road bike off road (through a yard) if that is a viable excape route. But that one is really hard to teach, takes a bit of off road riding to understand. And yes, I have had my road bike off road for one reason or another. The other options were "layin' 'er down". Going into the grass didn't tear up my bike or my passenger, it got us slow enough to get back on the road. (Lane we were in was an unmarked turn lane that ended at the intersection, nice.)

Just saying that no matter how much science you teach, there is no substitute for going out and performing. Any doctor of physics can tell you all about countersteering and all the forces involved. If they've never ridden a motorcycle they'd be hard pressed to perform in a bind if they could even ride in the first place without a bunch of training.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:59 PM   #217
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Do you have to countersteer with this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1YoC...ature=youtu.be



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Old 01-20-2013, 02:49 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outrunner View Post
Do you have to countersteer with this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1YoC...ature=youtu.be



Andy.



Technically, any single track vehicle must lean to turn. Since a single wheel vehicle can't have the front wheel turn opposite to 'outtrack' for the lean, it must be accomplished by rider body movements, the computer, or a combo.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:19 PM   #219
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Laugh

[QUOTE=markk53;20533884]Big difference between teaching countersteering and teaching countersteering science.

If I'm teaching someone countersteering I'm telling them exactly what you did in that one quote. Then we're going out and going to do so. One great method of practice is slaloming down the dotted centerline of a road. You aren't studying the science, you are doing. It's easy to describe and be an expert in the science, yet not know how to do it unless you simply do it. When they can do a weave like that intentionally at say 50 mph they're not thinking out every single move, they're just doing it. With that skill development they will have the capability to swerve with minimal thought time. It will just happen because the part of their brain that controls the actions knows how to do so without reasoning it out. (I.e., someone throws something at your head, you duck. You don't wait to analyze how to move your head, you learned that when young and throwing stuff at each other. You instinctively know if it hits you it might hurt you, so you duck.)


this
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:40 PM   #220
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keep it simple

Push right; go right.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:44 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Valker View Post
Technically, any single track vehicle must lean to turn. Since a single wheel vehicle can't have the front wheel turn opposite to 'outtrack' for the lean, it must be accomplished by rider body movements, the computer, or a combo.
Not necessarily. If he's got enough gyros inside that thing, he might not need to counter steer. Kinda like the way NASA uses gyroscopes to orient the hubble telescope.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:14 PM   #222
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Understood....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
Not necessarily. If he's got enough gyros inside that thing, he might not need to counter steer. Kinda like the way NASA uses gyroscopes to orient the hubble telescope.
...but if it has enough gyros inside that it remains perfectly upright, then he would never actually turn. He could use body movement or dragging a foot to force it onto another path, but the old and new paths would be straight lines separated by the body movements.Leaning is required for an actual turn to take place.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:33 PM   #223
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Interesting dynamics in this discussion. A lot of people presume to know what the OP "needs" and how he "needs to learn it". Or how other people should think and learn about these things. It's a piss-poor instructor that demands the student think and learn the way the instructor thinks and learned.

Knowing how to ride a bicycle teaches us just enough about how to ride a motorcycle to get some people into trouble. Yes, they are both single track vehicles and the physics involved has much in common but the sensory feedback and self-righting tendencies are different enough to make riding a motorcycle at speed a different animal. The classic new owner that crashes the bike on the way home from the dealership is a good example of this reality.

Some people are not scientifically inclined. That, in and of itself, doesn't make them bad people or unintelligent, but it does affect how they view technical explanations of physical realities. Other people need to "wrap their minds around" why these things are true. Not in order to ride a bike at easy paces but to really learn to trust the things about motorcycle dynamics that are counterintuitive.

Presumably we all learned to ride a bicycle before we tried to ride a motorcycle and yet in some cases even after decades of experience, some people still don't believe that a single track vehicle can only initiate a turn via counter-steering. Riding a motorcycle is not the same as riding a bicycle except under some very narrow circumstances. Learning to ride a motorcycle at the edge requires different skills, techniques and, dare I say, knowledge.

I'm not arguing that these things must be practiced under stressing conditions in order to be fully internalized or that internalization isn't a good thing. As I ride, I don't consciously counter-steer. But I do counter-steer all the time. And if I think about what I'm doing, I'll be aware that I'm counter-steering. Being aware doesn't slow me down and doesn't mean I don't have the reflexive response. It just means that I am able to counter-steer instinctively and I understand the physics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishJohn View Post
Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????
To the OP: Yes, you should be able to consciously counter-steer. It would be a good thing for you to be aware of your counter-steering if that helps you internalize the technique. No, you don't have to fully understand the physics of how a motorcycle turns, unless that knowledge will help you enjoy the experience more deeply and/or make you a safer rider.

cheers,

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Old 01-20-2013, 06:43 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Valker View Post
Technically, any single track vehicle must lean to turn. Since a single wheel vehicle can't have the front wheel turn opposite to 'outtrack' for the lean, it must be accomplished by rider body movements, the computer, or a combo.
Just because there's only one wheel doesn't mean it doesn't counter-steer to initiate the lean. "Out-tracking" is just steering outwards from the intended turn to initiate or deepen the lean. That's exactly how one-wheel vehicles turn. The contact patch is moved away from the turn momentarily in order to roll the vehicle and rider towards the turn.

Even if there were gyros to keep the vehicle upright, you'd still "out-track" to move the combined CoG (of vehicle and rider) to the inside of the turn.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:58 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by 568V8 View Post
Push right; go right.
Yep From a newb it is that simple , when I started riding this summer I was using my body to try to lean the bike . I read about counter steering , watched vids on it and then tried it on the road and confirmed what I read and saw . It took a bit to get used to it now I find myself doing it with out thinking about it . I have noticed if I dont ride for a while I have to think about it for the first few minutes ...... such as" shit the bike aint turning, Im going to go wide .... Doh,, push the handlebar dumbass ".
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