Countersteering confusion : (

[farmerstu]

o.k. again with a counter steering thread. I'll play. when i teach new riders(after they have taken the msf course,which i highly recommend for learning THE BASICS) i take them out to a deserted hiway and practice weaving the white lines, I start out by sitting behind them and with there hands on the grips, I steer the bike with their elbows, it demonstrates very effectively how steering works. i also cover their hands with mine and do near threshold braking. works great.
DISCLAIMER.I'm 6' 7 and my arms are longer than average and my hands are also a bit bigger. this technique may not work if you can't comfortably operate the bike from the pillion.
now the answer. first you have to learn to it deliberately and consciously, keep doing it and it will become automatic and muscle memory.

[#46]

Originally Posted by farmerstu

... I start out by sitting behind them and with there hands on the grips, I steer the bike with their elbows, it demonstrates very effectively how steering works.

I'll have to remember that method the next time a rider asks me to explain CS.

[BanjoBoy]

With a 250 or bicycle yer counter steering, but it's so light you don't even know it. When ya ride an FJR, you definitely know yer counter steering.

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.

/thread

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by IrishJohn

Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????

Thank you in advance for any answers you may give

That's actually a great question. I used to tell my students that you can get through the vast majority of your motorcycling life by doing exactly what you describe. You sorta look where you want to go, you sorta lean over, and you complete a lazy arcing turn that generally gets you where you want to go. You may never need to do anything else. Unfortunately that technnique doesn't work when you need to turn the notorcycle RIGHT NOW. If you're never actively thought about countersteering you will not be able to suddenly invent that skill. That's why you should actively think about how you turn the motorcycle. I ask myself three questions. Where am I looking? What am I doing with the handlebars? What am I doing with the throttle?

[jamesau]

Motorcycle steering has an ‘inverse-response’ dynamic characteristic that requires countersteering to stabilize the bike. Another well-studied ‘system’ with this characteristic is the ‘inverted pendulum’; I mention it because an important analogy can be demonstrated.
To help make sense of countersteering while off the bike, try to balance an upright broomstick on your upturned palm. Once comfortable with balancing it, take five steps to your right. The fastest, smoothest, and surest way to do this from a standstill is to:
1) move your hand to the left (causes the broomstick to lean to the right)
2) take 5 steps to your right
3) accelerate your hand to the right (causes the broomstick to straighten and allows you to stop smoothly)

After you’re done with the broomstick game, try moving your upright extension ladder around the outside of the house with the fly extended. After a while, you should be able to move around deliberately without stomping on the flower beds and having the ladder crash down on your neighbor’s car.

It’s important to become comfortable with the reality of the physics so you can be as smooth, deliberate, and precise as possible in guiding your bike down the road on your chosen lines. Now put down the broomstick and try it on the bike.

[KG6BWS]

Originally Posted by BanjoBoy

With a 250 or bicycle yer counter steering, but it's so light you don't even know it. When ya ride an FJR, you definitely know yer counter steering. /thread

Noticed the same thing when I put my F650GS in the shop, and rode an F800ST loaner for a couple days. Holy shit but the steering felt like it was locked!!!

[Mr_Gone]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

This is not to be until Tuesday.

I was hoping we could postpone this until Friday because of the holiday.

[baloneyskin daddy]

Target fixation happens when you don't understand countersteering. While you look at the object you want to avoid you consciously try to turn away from it as you would in a car which sends you directly where you don't want to be.During normal riding countersteering is natural and requires little or no thought but in a stressfull situation you tend to go with what you know,or think you know. This is the scary part when I hear people say they don't countersteer, they are and don't understand it until its too late.

[txwanderer]

Originally Posted by IrishJohn

Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????

Thank you in advance for any answers you may give

If you want to fall down. Counter steer isn't. It is a phrase someone came up with to try and get through to people too dumb to know what the front wheel is doing. It didn't work.

You haven't fallen down so keep going. I hate that word and do not allow its use in my classes.

Cheers

[OldPete]

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....1.MM1yQngbi5A

technical stuff... http://books.google.com/books?id=JCH...page&q&f=false

[Pantah]

If I overcook a turn on pavement or dirt and do not want to run off, it takes a forceful and concious effort to push the inside bar further to make the turn. It usually works...

If I rely on leaning, I will most likely wobble off wide while trying to get slowed up. That can

[abnslr]

I'd say your best bet is to take the information folks have put in this thread already, find yourself a deserted stretch of road, and consciously experiment with it. Really figure out what it is your body is doing that makes the bike go the direction you want it too. Try various types of control inputs, even exaggerate some (careful with that!) to see what happens. You can learn a lot from discussion and books, but really only build skills and muscle memory by doing.

[Boon Booni]

Originally Posted by Pantah

If I overcook a turn on pavement or dirt and do not want to run off, it takes a forceful and concious effort to push the inside bar further to make the turn. It usually works...

If I rely on leaning, I will most likely wobble off wide while trying to get slowed up. That can

I agree, there are been occasions where I literally said to myself "push that damn bar!"

[407demon]

try it on ice that will give you an appreciation of what the bikes is doing at what input.
Bill.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by GeckoRider

If/when you are at slow speeds this all goes out the window. .

No it doesn't.