Countersteering confusion : (

[wtjBatman]

Originally Posted by IrishJohn

I currently have (and the reason for going on the course) a Suzuki TU250 and have had no problems going around corners/bends etc -

Even though it's 3 months late I just have to respond to this. I was 100% sure I wanted to buy a Ninja 250 before I took the BRC and got my M endorsement. Although I did still get a Ninja 250, mainly because I got a great deal on one, I did get a chance to ride a Suzuki TU250 during the BRC. I fell in love with the thing. It's such a cool little retro looking bike. I'd love to have one just for cruising around town.

[KX50002]

What I don't understand is, people talk about it like ther is another way to get a motorcycle to turn.
I get that you need to do it instinctively, which is one reason dirt experience helps the street rider (T.I.T.S Time in The Saddle)
But all this pontification and extolling of virtues makes it seem like you have a choice

[Lion BR]

Originally Posted by KX50002

What I don't understand is, people talk about it like ther is another way to get a motorcycle to turn.
I get that you need to do it instinctively, which is one reason dirt experience helps the street rider (T.I.T.S Time in The Saddle)
But all this pontification and extolling of virtues makes it seem like you have a choice

Indeed there is no way to start a turn without countersteering. I see it when I'm riding behind guys who do not "believe" in it or have no idea what this conversation about countersteering is.

Some of the pontification and extolling here is about making it second nature, as a technique for better cornering. Or for using it as a technique for emergency situations, such as when a swerve is needed, or when the rider discovers that nice sweeping curve has a reducing turning radius, or when you simply find out you entered that one curve too hot. It is about using it to speed up turn in, and to make corrections when already in the curve. In my mind, I feel I'm countersteering throughout the curve, even though people say this is not the case (and it may not be the case).

And yes, most of it appears to be a loss of time, but people eventually will come around, they will pay attention to it, they will experience the advantage of having it as part of a conscious process, and will discover the beauty of having it become second nature in their riding tool kit.

I confess, it took me a while to realize what this was, even when I've been on two wheels since not too much behind the time I learned how to walk and I used it all the time, purposefully, but without knowing it was called countersteering. In my mind the term "countersteering" was what I used when riding my bike on gravel roads and counter steered on power slides.

[PhilB]

You ever notice that when a kid first learns to ride a bicycle, he has a very hard time at first, and falls down a lot, until suddenly he "gets it" and everything works right? That's the point when his body figures out countersteering. But because it is a subtle movement, and no one ever explains the idea to him (indeed, the adult teaching him probably has no idea himself), he has no idea what he is actually doing, even after he figures out how to do it subconsciously.

PhilB

[ibafran]

Originally Posted by ibafran

... Countersteering works at the very moment that the bike must be balanced when other modes of balance disappear. Like when the rider's feet come off the ground and no longer have any input into keeping the bike upright and on course. ....

DAKEZ: I am appreciative that you didn't rip on me for the quoted error in my post. So here is an addendum in case you decide to use my stuff for enlightening others.

ALL: Countersteering is often employed at near zero speeds to keep a bike balanced well before the feet ever leave the ground. Moving a bike around with the engine shut off while either astride the bike or walking next to it usually has the rider using countersteering primarily to keep the bike in balance. As another poster noted, riders of bicycles learn to countersteer via muscle memory and that part of our (unthinking, non-cognisent) brains responsible for personal balance. And the skill transfers to motorbikes when needed.

As an example of this, when a bike severely outweighs and/or out-leverages a rider, the rider takes great care at near zero speeds not to let the bike tip so far as to make recovery very difficult or impossible. Short riders do not have much leverage to cope with a lot of mass. Combine that with a shortage of upper body strength, and it is a wonder that some riders can deal with Wings, GSs, and the like. Riders learn to countersteer the bike to keep the weight over the wheels at near zero speeds. Learning to ride on small bikes makes it easier to learn the basic skills of balance & recovery that will transfer to larger bikes as a matter of experience.

Based on this bit of observation and resulting conjecture, it is easy to see why hardleys and like cruisers are so popular. Combine a low center of mass with a long leverage handlebar (ape hangers?) and good footing, and most riders have little problem controlling so much bike at slow speeds where most of the non-life-threatening tip-overs occur. Tall bikes of mass with short leverages require a deft touch and high degree of skill in a lot of places where cruisers and small bikes are much better. Simple trips thru the urban glut is fraught with stop lights and parking problems. Having a rider friendly bike is usually much more important to noobs and riders not into developing serious skills, low speed or otherwise.

Riders can test this for themselves by leaving the engine off and moving the bike around noting exactly what they do with the bars to keep the bike balanced. Bicyclists do the same thing and the bicycles don't weigh anything.

Skert ( a very short and slight woman of note) demonstrates in windless parking lots that it only takes 3 fingers on the gas tank to keep a non-moving Wing balanced. She can also pick it up if it has tipped over. BUT, she never rolls it around at near zero speeds without help/spotters as it just too easily overpowers her short leverages if she isn't about to motor off on it. She has a commitment to skill that exceeds the norm for most bikers. She is a fine example for all riders to become adept with their bikes in all scenarios. I find that for myself that I rarely ride with anyone who does not have strong parking lot skillz.

Aside: To those riders who believe that gyroscopic forces play a large part in riding, please buy a gyroscope and play with it. It does not work very well at slow spin rates. At what spin rate does the force become remarkable? How does that info impact what happens on a bike and when? Tony Foal says that frame geometry and handlebar leverages make gyro forces on a bike largely meaningless at the speeds we travel, iirc.

[farmerstu]

Originally Posted by ibafran

DAKEZ: I am appreciative that you didn't rip on me for the quoted error in my post. So here is an addendum in case you decide to use my stuff for enlightening others.

ALL: Countersteering is often employed at near zero speeds to keep a bike balanced well before the feet ever leave the ground. Moving a bike around with the engine shut off while either astride the bike or walking next to it usually has the rider using countersteering primarily to keep the bike in balance. As another poster noted, riders of bicycles learn to countersteer via muscle memory and that part of our (unthinking, non-cognisent) brains responsible for personal balance. And the skill transfers to motorbikes when needed.

As an example of this, when a bike severely outweighs and/or out-leverages a rider, the rider takes great care at near zero speeds not to let the bike tip so far as to make recovery very difficult or impossible. Short riders do not have much leverage to cope with a lot of mass. Combine that with a shortage of upper body strength, and it is a wonder that some riders can deal with Wings, GSs, and the like. Riders learn to countersteer the bike to keep the weight over the wheels at near zero speeds. Learning to ride on small bikes makes it easier to learn the basic skills of balance & recovery that will transfer to larger bikes as a matter of experience.

Based on this bit of observation and resulting conjecture, it is easy to see why hardleys and like cruisers are so popular. Combine a low center of mass with a long leverage handlebar (ape hangers?) and good footing, and most riders have little problem controlling so much bike at slow speeds where most of the non-life-threatening tip-overs occur. Tall bikes of mass with short leverages require a deft touch and high degree of skill in a lot of places where cruisers and small bikes are much better. Simple trips thru the urban glut is fraught with stop lights and parking problems. Having a rider friendly bike is usually much more important to noobs and riders not into developing serious skills, low speed or otherwise.

Riders can test this for themselves by leaving the engine off and moving the bike around noting exactly what they do with the bars to keep the bike balanced. Bicyclists do the same thing and the bicycles don't weigh anything.

Skert ( a very short and slight woman of note) demonstrates in windless parking lots that it only takes 3 fingers on the gas tank to keep a non-moving Wing balanced. She can also pick it up if it has tipped over. BUT, she never rolls it around at near zero speeds without help/spotters as it just too easily overpowers her short leverages if she isn't about to motor off on it. She has a commitment to skill that exceeds the norm for most bikers. She is a fine example for all riders to become adept with their bikes in all scenarios. I find that for myself that I rarely ride with anyone who does not have strong parking lot skillz.

Aside: To those riders who believe that gyroscopic forces play a large part in riding, please buy a gyroscope and play with it. It does not work very well at slow spin rates. At what spin rate does the force become remarkable? How does that info impact what happens on a bike and when? Tony Foal says that frame geometry and handlebar leverages make gyro forces on a bike largely meaningless at the speeds we travel, iirc.

good post,accurate and informative. But please, do you have to call a Harley Davidson a hardley in a informative post like this? I just get real tired of the old joke.
and yes i have one. along with a klr. and have had a wing along with a wide assortment of other on and off road machines.

[Klay]

Originally Posted by Salzig

Changing direction during a wheelie, does it involve countersteering?

Yes.

[scarysharkface]

Originally Posted by Klay

Yes.

No way. All you have to do is lean. Obviously you have not given this any thought. ;)

[duck]

The mass and rotational velocity of your two motorcycle wheels do generate quite a lot of angular momentum that contribute a greatly to stabilizing a motorcycle and keeping it upright.

When pushing your bike across the garage at very low speeds there is very little angular momentum.

That's basic physics.

[PT Rider]

Originally Posted by PeterW

Concious really only helps when you realize you are going perhaps a tad too fast into the next corner. Then KNOWING that countersteering will lean the bike and turn it a bit quicker can be a life saver.

YES! Countersteer harder to turn sharper. Necessary when in a turn a bit too fast or when there's a need to tighten the turn to avoid an obstruction.

Intentional, practiced left-right or right-left counter steering is the quickest way to avoid a hazard suddenly seen when riding straight. Your body will do what is has practiced when an emergency arises, not what you think ought'a be done but you haven't trained your body (trained the brain, actually) by repeated practicing.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by scarysharkface

No way. All you have to do is lean. Obviously you have not given this any thought. ;)

Are you sure? You might want to give it more thought.

[scarysharkface]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

Are you sure? You might want to give it more thought.

But.. but.. but.. ;)

[Jayrod1318]

Originally Posted by PhilB

You ever notice that when a kid first learns to ride a bicycle, he has a very hard time at first, and falls down a lot, until suddenly he "gets it" and everything works right? That's the point when his body figures out countersteering. But because it is a subtle movement, and no one ever explains the idea to him (indeed, the adult teaching him probably has no idea himself), he has no idea what he is actually doing, even after he figures out how to do it subconsciously.

PhilB

I've seen this first hand, my little jayrod is highly proficient on the strider bicycle. Arc, curves and circles. slow speed turns she uses the bars to turn.

Her brain is now wired for 2 wheels.

[waywardengineer]

This reminds me of trying to ride my friend's pedal trike a few years ago. I never had a trike as a kid or rode one before this, so the only program in my brain for anything with handlebars is to countersteer. I could not for the life of me steer that trike! I would think to turn and try to turn the handlebars in the direction of the turn, but then muscle memory from riding two wheeled things would kick in and i would end up going the opposite direction of where i wanted to go every time. My friends had a good laugh at me steering into walls on the thing.

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by PhilB

You ever notice that when a kid first learns to ride a bicycle, he has a very hard time at first, and falls down a lot, until suddenly he "gets it" and everything works right? That's the point when his body figures out countersteering. But because it is a subtle movement, and no one ever explains the idea to him (indeed, the adult teaching him probably has no idea himself), he has no idea what he is actually doing, even after he figures out how to do it subconsciously.

PhilB

I told my kids to look where they want to go and the bike will go there. My big one figured it out immediatley. My five year old figured it out too, but she likes to deliberately look in one direction while riding in another direction, while shouting, "Look daddy. It doesn't work!" Man, that kid is a pain in the ass.