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Old 03-23-2013, 06:21 PM   #376
Coachgeo
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If I get this right......... short rake combined with heavy bike means MORE counter steer. Thus to get a good visual........ view pig of a bike doing turns. Such as this police bike vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yotsgbjWqAI
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:21 PM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
Took a while reading this thread to understand this. I new it intuitively; yet still took further reading for it to dawn on me why I was still slightly confused. It's because the above way of saying it didn't match science or reality not because it's wrong; ......... but cause I was reading his wording different than he intended it be read. It read to me as

look left, push left......... your now going left
Look right, push right..... your now going right
Look look etc.

of course that made no sense because push left side of bar is done in the 99% of time one is in a right turn.

So maybe it's best said initially as below.



Once that is clearly understood; thennnnn shorten it; for quicker brain processing when in action, to something like how Dakez and others put it. Say?:
I don't understand. I thought DAKEZ had explained it clearly, What do yoiu mean by "Steer left"? On my bikes you push left to turn left, the harder you push, the more you turn. simple.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:12 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by KX50002 View Post
I don't understand. I thought DAKEZ had explained it clearly, What do yoiu mean by "Steer left"? On my bikes you push left to turn left, the harder you push, the more you turn. simple.
. Isn't language nutty. My guess is we must be "pushing" different things and the description is vague enough for both of us to think the other person is crazy. What are you interpreting "push" to mean? Read it like below myself

Left turn:
DAKEZ's PUSH LEFT- For me that reads "push" with the "left arm" on the handle bar. This means you have now cocked the wheel to the right. Assumed this to be DAKEZ's way of saying first you must counter steer (slight right) at the onset of a left turn. This counter steer happened because momentary left arm push caused a right turn of handle bars leaning the bike to the left preparing the forces needed to execute a turn to the left

. STEER LEFT- The act of "steering left" which I slipped in there to replace the vague wording of "go left". This is the second phase of a left turn. It is what you do after counter steer/push left (arm); which was the first phase . Steer left describes what the arms and body do. AKA you push the handle bar with the right arm and pull in with the left cocking the wheel to the left thus turning to the left.

That being said......... it could also be described as

Left turn (abbreviated version)
LOOK LEFT, push left , push right

Left turn ( cliff note version)
LOOK LEFT, push left arm (counter steer), push right arm (steer handle bar into left turn)

Coachgeo screwed with this post 03-25-2013 at 08:41 AM
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:28 AM   #379
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"...confusion"
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:44 AM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
. Isn't language nutty. My guess is we must be "pushing" different things and the description is vague enough for both of us to think the other person is crazy. What are you interpreting "push" to mean? Read it like below myself

Left turn:
DAKEZ's PUSH LEFT- For me that reads "push" with the "left arm" on the handle bar. This means you have now cocked the wheel to the right. Assumed this to be DAKEZ's way of saying first you must counter steer (slight right) at the onset of a left turn. This counter steer that happened because of the left arm push leans the bike to the left preparing the forces needed to execute a turn to the left

. STEER LEFT- The act of "steering left" which I slipped in there to replace the vague wording of "go left". This is the second phase of a left turn. It is what you do after counter steer/push left (arm); which was the first phase . Steer left describes what the arms and body do. AKA you push the handle bar with the right arm and pull in with the left cocking the wheel to the left thus turning to the left.

That being said......... it could also be described as

Left turn (abbreviated version)
LOOK LEFT, push left , push right

Left turn ( cliff note version)
LOOK LEFT, push left arm (counter steer), push right arm (steer handle bar into left turn)
The language might be nutty, but physics isn't. Most (I said most, not all) bikes have to maintain a left turn by continuing to press left. At some higher speed, and some sharper degree of turn, ALL (I said all) single track bikes will require a continued press left to stay turning left. If you press right while into a left turn, the bike will turn less, straighten, or turn back right depending on the amount of 'press'.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:46 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post



"...confusion"
So what does "push left" mean since you wrote it? Push left arm?, push bike's handle bars toward the left? push lefty Bob off the cliff....?
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:52 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valker View Post
The language might be nutty, but physics isn't. Most (I said most, not all) bikes have to maintain a left turn by continuing to press left. At some higher speed, and some sharper degree of turn, ALL (I said all) single track bikes will require a continued press left to stay turning left. If you press right while into a left turn, the bike will turn less, straighten, or turn back right depending on the amount of 'press'.
Correct....... that maintain you describe is the "steer left" AKA the second phase of the turn. This thread is about the counter steer portion (first phase) primarily which is the initial blip of the front wheel to the right in order to execute a left turn. (push with left arm.) This blip right; AKA counter steer, sets the lean of the bike to the left. Of course this momentary blip must be followed by the second phase of steer/push handle bar in a leftward direction and maintain a pushed left direction during the turn as you describe.

myself......... and maybe others read "push left" as Push with the left arm! Others read it as push bike in a leftward direction. So "Push left" or "Press left" can have two meanings with VERY OPPOSITE results happen for each.

So to keep abbreviated but clear to any reader that on a left turn you Counter steer First (rightward turn of handle bar) and then execute your leftward turn of handle bars and stay with it till time to straighten out.

Left Turn
LOOK LEFT, Push left arm, Steer leftward

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Old 03-25-2013, 09:10 AM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valker View Post
The language might be nutty, but physics isn't. Most (I said most, not all) bikes have to maintain a left turn by continuing to press left. At some higher speed, and some sharper degree of turn, ALL (I said all) single track bikes will require a continued press left to stay turning left. If you press right while into a left turn, the bike will turn less, straighten, or turn back right depending on the amount of 'press'.
this.
If I were to push left, then right, I'd wind up turning right.
To turn left I push the handlebars with my left hand, but I don't push the other way, I just continue to push left until the turn i s complete.
It seems simple to me, I don't even think about it
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:48 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KX50002 View Post
this.
If I were to push left, then right, I'd wind up turning right. To turn left I push the handlebars with my left hand, but I don't push the other way, I just continue to push left until the turn i s complete.
It seems simple to me, I don't even think about it
forget the right hand. If you push with just the left hand you have now turned the front wheel to the right. This creates a left lean and is first phase of a turn. AKA counter steer.

Now back to both arms.

In a left turn to maintain it you actually push with the right hand and pull with the left. Well in reality you modulate back and forth a bit but for simplistic bio-mechanic action of turning a front wheel on a bike you push with one and pull with other. In this case pull left arm, push right arm

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Old 03-25-2013, 10:18 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
In a left turn to maintain it you actually push with the right hand and pull with the left. Well in reality you modulate back and forth a bit but for simplistic bio-mechanic action of turning a front wheel on a bike you push with one and pull with other. In this case pull left arm, push right arm
...er..No.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:23 AM   #386
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On my Suzuki I do have to pull on the inside bar or push on the outside bar or the bike will just fall down to the inside of the corner. On my Kawasaki I have to continuously push on the inside bar or the bike will stand up immediately.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:00 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by bumbeen View Post
On my Suzuki I do have to pull on the inside bar or push on the outside bar or the bike will just fall down to the inside of the corner. On my Kawasaki I have to continuously push on the inside bar or the bike will stand up immediately.
Thank you for the clarity. This is the "modulate" or balance of push and pull mentioned in my previous post. This is why the use of "steer left" instead of push, pull or "go left" makes more since IMHO. Using the term "inside and outside" does simplify things even better so thanks for that too

To Turn
LOOK into turn, counter steer outside, steer inside, LOOK into Turn more.

More abbreviated
To turn
LOOK into it, counter out, steer in, look in, look in, look in...

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:11 PM   #388
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I am confused by this thread.... Does that count?
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:11 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valker View Post
...er..No.
Sit on your bike; ANY BIKE. not rolling (aka- simplistic turning of front wheel) left turn of wheel is push right arm and PULL left arm.

While moving.... in phase 2 of a turn, it is some balance of the two to maintain the left turn AKA modulate.

Hook an EMG (electroencephalogram, measure's the fire of muscle neurons) to the muscles of the arm and my proposal is you will see the primary force is a pull of the left arm, push of the right.... in general. Some bikes more.... some less... because besides just using arms to turn front wheel your also using them to counter act the centrifugal and other forces that want to take you back to straight or low side you, as described by bumbeen. Thus again why using of the term "steer left" "steer right" or "Steer in" may be a better way to say it than "Push Left" or "Push Right".

Anyone working on their Dr. or Master's in Biomechanics or Motor learning? Would be an interesting Dissertation/Thesis. Especially interesting when comparing bikes.

Biomechanics is study of movment via the action of muscle on bones. Motor learning; which is area of my study, is biomechanics as well as the study of the ways the brain learns movement.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:35 PM   #390
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My head hurts now, screw it I'm going riding.
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