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Old 03-25-2013, 04:08 PM   #391
FlySniper
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Allow me to add to the countersteering confusion.

You confuzelled people do realize that countersteering works even when you are leaned over in a turn, right?

As long as you're not at the limit, you can tighten the turn by pushing on the inside bar and straighten the turn (stand the bike up) by pushing the outside bar. (Easy does it! The CS effect seems to magically get amplified in proportion to the lean angle.)

I hope like hell this adds to the misery of this thread and makes some heads spin.

THANKS!
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:57 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by FlySniper View Post
Allow me to add to the countersteering confusion.

You confuzelled people do realize that countersteering works even when you are leaned over in a turn, right?

As long as you're not at the limit, you can tighten the turn by pushing on the inside bar and straighten the turn (stand the bike up) by pushing the outside bar. (Easy does it! The CS effect seems to magically get amplified in proportion to the lean angle.)

I hope like hell this adds to the misery of this thread and makes some heads spin.

THANKS!
EXACTLY and this fits right in with the modulation mentioned previously. While in phase two of the turn (Steer into turn) You tweak the turn rate/lean rate by modulating push/pull of arms creating needed steer or counter steer to match the demands of the turn.

GOOD POINT about "counter steer is amplified in proportion to the lean angle.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:13 AM   #393
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You're overthinking it.
What you're saying is "turn left, and if you turn too far turn right a little."

As long as you're moving (on every bike I've evr ridden) "turn the bars left" results in turning the bike to the right, that's why it's called "countersteering"

I've never encountered a bike where I've had to turn one way to initiate the turn, then turn the other way to continue it.

Are you running synthetic oil? Or a car tire? (This is an attempt at humor, please don't get all butt hurt about it)

Correction, I rode a Goldwing trike once, but I don't consider that to be a "bike" especially in the context of this conversation.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:40 AM   #394
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OK - this might be a really stupid thread/questions to ask. I learned to ride a bycycle at age 8 or so and never had problems swerving or anything. I got a step through Honda 50 at 17 and never had a problem going around bends or swerving etc. I got a Kymco People 50 five years ago and never had a problem etc. Then I went on the 'Riders Edge' course for new motorcyclists a couple of months ago and have been confused as all heck since about Countersteering. I currently have (and the reason for going on the course) a Suzuki TU250 and have had no problems going around corners/bends etc - but I keep seeing posts and threads and things that say things like 'If you don't UNDERSTAND countersteering you will never really be able to swerve in an emergency' and things like that.
I DO understand that you do not 'steer' the bike and that the 'leaning' is not really 'steering' it either - but what confuses the hell out of me is this :
Should I be able to make a CONCIOUS move of the handlebars to the opposite way I want to go or should I just continue as I am - having no problems in the turns etc without fully 'understanding' how I get around them????

Thank you in advance for any answers you may give

So... now...

Are you clear on it?

If there is one way to really get screwed up on the subject, just ask about it on a forum rather than look for some serious authority on steering, like Keith Code and a number of others who teach performance riding. I know that's what I'd do...
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:46 AM   #395
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:02 AM   #396
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On my Suzuki I do have to pull on the inside bar or push on the outside bar or the bike will just fall down to the inside of the corner. On my Kawasaki I have to continuously push on the inside bar or the bike will stand up immediately.
Those are tire and / or geometry issues. Once the bike is established in the turn you should be able to (essentially) let go and the bike should continue to track.

Try raising the front end 5 mm on the Suzuki and replacing the tires on the Kawi.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:25 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by KX50002 View Post
You're overthinking it.
What you're saying is "turn left, and if you turn too far turn right a little."....
I think we're saying opposite. If your turning left........ and want to get into it deeper (lean into it more) you could conceivably counter steer a tad to lean it more. "Steer in" describes generically all the actions you need to do to stay in the turn which varies some from bike to bike, to condition of bike. to road conditions etc. and all those require some modulation of when your pushing and pulling the handlebars.

but yeah......... got to agree with you too. Do tend to overthink
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:56 AM   #398
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So what does "push left" mean since you wrote it? Push left arm?, push bike's handle bars toward the left? push lefty Bob off the cliff....?
It means that you are a dumb ass littering the counter steer with unnecessary drivel.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:10 AM   #399
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It means that you are a dumb ass littering the counter steer with unnecessary drivel.
On the contrary.
Since the "confusion" part of this Countersteering Confusion thread was effectively resolved on the first page, he is creating new confusion.
Otherwise this would turn into just a Countersteering thread, where everyone understood what it meant and why it is important to know how to push-steer (oh alright, countersteer).

There shall be no eschewing of obfuscation!
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:10 AM   #400
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So... now...

Are you clear on it?

If there is one way to really get screwed up on the subject, just ask about it on a forum rather than look for some serious authority on steering, like Keith Code and a number of others who teach performance riding. I know that's what I'd do...
I'm kind of horrified that my question seems to have caused rather a lot of rancour from some posters actually : ( But overall I have learned a lot and am using it to really learn how to become more concious of how I am riding and what I am trying to achieve while riding. Debate is always good - I just wish some people could put intelligence before ego : (
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:24 AM   #401
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I'm kind of horrified that my question seems to have caused rather a lot of rancour from some posters actually : ( But overall I have learned a lot and am using it to really learn how to become more concious of how I am riding and what I am trying to achieve while riding. Debate is always good - I just wish some people could put intelligence before ego : (
Meh! This was nothing. Go ahead and post something like this down in JM and sit back and wait for the responses from the "Basement Overlords." You will learn things that you cannot unlearn as much as you might want to.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:46 AM   #402
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Meh! This was nothing. Go ahead and post something like this down in JM and sit back and wait for the responses from the "Basement Overlords." You will learn things that you cannot unlearn as much as you might want to.
I believe I will remain here in the Penthouse ; )
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:34 AM   #403
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I've never encountered a bike where I've had to turn one way to initiate the turn, then turn the other way to continue it.
Next time you "flick" a bike into a turn, notice that you have to back off on your countersteering input. That is what he is talking about. if you held the same inout you would end up lowsiding.The force on the front tire is indeed pushing the bike left in a left turn and right in a right turn, but that is not the case with the initial input which is countersteering. In a left turn, the front contact patch pushes the wheel right, then pushes left once you're leaned over. That's probably a better way to state it than you are actually turning the other direction.

Note though if you countersteer at very low speeds(some call it a dip, but it is countersteering) the wheel does turn back the other way completely. It is just at high speeds camber thrust provides a lot of the turning force so you don't see the wheel turn towards the inside of the corner nearly as much when moving slower.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:37 AM   #404
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Those are tire and / or geometry issues. Once the bike is established in the turn you should be able to (essentially) let go and the bike should continue to track.

Try raising the front end 5 mm on the Suzuki and replacing the tires on the Kawi.
Well I don't really mind it, I'm just hoping that the example will illustrate that you don't necessarily countersteer through the entire corner depending on the bike. I am definitely putting a taller rear tire on the Kawi and raising the forks in the triple clamps a bit.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:20 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by KX50002 View Post
You're overthinking it.
What you're saying is "turn left, and if you turn too far turn right a little."

As long as you're moving (on every bike I've evr ridden) "turn the bars left" results in turning the bike to the right, that's why it's called "countersteering"

I've never encountered a bike where I've had to turn one way to initiate the turn, then turn the other way to continue it.

Are you running synthetic oil? Or a car tire? (This is an attempt at humor, please don't get all butt hurt about it)

Correction, I rode a Goldwing trike once, but I don't consider that to be a "bike" especially in the context of this conversation.
Actually, Coachgeo is exactly right, and EVERY bike you have encountered requires you to turn one way to initiate the turn, then turn the other way to continue it. The "turn the other way" part is generally even less understood than the countersteering part, since it happens pretty much by itself. You countersteer to set your lean angle, then relax your grip and the front wheel naturally comes across the center and you follow around the corner. Then you countersteer again to change your lean angle (whether to tighten the turn, or to end it and become upright again), and once the desired angle is set, you allow the bike to follow its set course again.

PhilB
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