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Old 05-16-2013, 07:29 AM   #466
farmerstu
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no. at least 3 people have it wrong.
countersteering does not begin at about 4 mph.
it begins the moment your feet leave the ground.
learning to actively use the bars to countersteer aggressively is the most important skill to learn. along with threshold braking and situational awareness.
sounds to me like some people here can't swerve the dotted lines at speed.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:30 AM   #467
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If you don't realize consciously that you can forcefully press on the bars to change the direction of the bike and just think "look and you'll go", then how are you going to be able to swerve?

I came upon a pothole once, I was looking right at it, I wasn't going fast, maybe 30 mph, but I couldn't see it until I was maybe 40 feet away. A hard shove on the left bar allowed me to dodge it without looking away from the hazard.

With 1 second to dodge an obstacle that is directly in my path, I doubt looking to one side of it is going to work, it requires a deliberate forceful input to the bars in order to miss it.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:36 AM   #468
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Errrrr. How 'bout doing both? Look where you want to go, steer there?
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:38 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
I really wish this whole obsession with countersteering would just go away. If you go around a curve or change direction on any two wheeled vehicle at more than about 4 mph you are countersteering, wether you are consciously aware of it or not. Period.

The real emphasis should be on practicing looking where you are going. Look left, go left...look right, go right. We should be telling people to pay attention to their head position rather than what they are doing with the bars. Slow, look, accelerate. That's where the practice should be. You are already counter steering, so quit thinking about it. For some, it's way too confusing.
This was shitty advice 25 pages ago, and it's still shitty advice.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:04 AM   #470
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The real emphasis should be on practicing looking where you are going. Look left, go left...look right, go right.
What happens when I look in my rear-view mirror?
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:06 PM   #471
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....
With 1 second to dodge an obstacle that is directly in my path, I doubt looking to one side of it is going to work, it requires a deliberate forceful input to the bars in order to miss it.
...Errrrr. How 'bout doing both? Look where you want to go, steer there?...
That absolutely works, in case there is any reason for anyone to doubt.

I had that exact situation about an hour ago. Happened to be on my bicycle, but no matter insofar as countersteering and looking go.
Came over a small dip in the road and a snake was sunning himself across my path. Not wanting to give him a major back ache, I looked just beyond his tail twitched the handlebars right and made a left swerve around him.
Countersteering is so much a part of my muscle memory, there was no thinking about it, brain automagically said gotta go left, move hands right.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:34 PM   #472
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Errrrr. How 'bout doing both? Look where you want to go, steer there?
Don't get me wrong, I've done my fair share of being surprised at an obstacle int he road and running right over it cause I was staring at it and wondering what the hell it was.(usually a pothole or a spot of grease or paint on the road). I'm responding to the folks saying you don't need to know how countersteering works, just look and you'll go. Well no, not necessarily, I can look at an obstacle and countersteer around it, or I can look somewhere and not go there at all.

My point was that I doubt just looking and hoping your lizard brain takes you around an obstacle when you have less than 1 second to do something about it is going to work if you don't understand that you need to forcefully press the bars.

Edit: I had a good bit of confusion in my BRC when we were setting up for the first exercise where we actually turned the bikes at some sort of speed. They said we're going to go in an oval, and I said how do you turn the bike? They told me "don't make this too cerebral". Ok, that doesn't help me at all. There's something you're physically doing to make the bike turn, what the hell is it? If you teach someone to ride by telling them, you steer with your eyes, I suspect they will be quite poor at making very quick and abrupt course corrections.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:39 PM   #473
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My response to that question from my MSF students would be: Look at the students, ask them "If getting a bike to turn involves intitiating lean, how do we initiate leaning?"

I'd look around the group and invariably, someone would respond, "press or push on the grip in the direction of the turn." Just like I taught them on the first night of class.

Questions like that are always best anwered by the students as it reaffirms their own learning patterns. For an instructor to answer like was done, either the RC is new, uninvolved, or trying to speed things along to save time. NEVER ever pass up a student question to support and reaffirm previously covered material. Big mistake in my book.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:28 PM   #474
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My response to that question from my MSF students would be: Look at the students, ask them "If getting a bike to turn involves intitiating lean, how do we initiate leaning?"

I'd look around the group and invariably, someone would respond, "press or push on the grip in the direction of the turn." Just like I taught them on the first night of class.

Questions like that are always best anwered by the students as it reaffirms their own learning patterns. For an instructor to answer like was done, either the RC is new, uninvolved, or trying to speed things along to save time. NEVER ever pass up a student question to support and reaffirm previously covered material. Big mistake in my book.
Question. If I recall, the reason I initially asked the question was because nothing about pressing was mentioned in the demo portion prior to executing the exercise. Is that correct or are they supposed to tell you to press on the left grip to turn during the explanation of the exercise?
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:17 PM   #475
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Do you absolutely HAVE to PUSH, could you pull right to go left?
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:34 PM   #476
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Do you absolutely HAVE to PUSH, could you pull right to go left?
Yup... in VERY aggressive situations you can push/pull on the bars to initiate an immediate turn.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:30 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
What happens when I look in my rear-view mirror?
Which one, the right or the left one?
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:26 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
What happens when I look in my rear-view mirror?
It depends on whether you're running synthetic oil or a car tire.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:35 AM   #479
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Which one, the right or the left one?
Ah geez, you guys are making this too difficult.

That's it, I'm never looking my mirrors again.
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Where the fuck...
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:59 PM   #480
Andyvh1959
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Shaddix, to your question: "If I recall, the reason I initially asked the question was because nothing about pressing was mentioned in the demo portion prior to executing the exercise. Is that correct or are they supposed to tell you to press on the left grip to turn during the explanation of the exercise?"

IF the RC had not described the action of "pressing to initiate lean" then that was his/her mistake. In this exercise (small oval) it is key that riders understand and use the "slow-look-lean-roll" sequence because it is the first time we really use it. It is key to at least make the students aware of it. If not, students WILL wander wide as they apply throttle through the turn. That exercise also includes a reversal of direction so the students ride the oval to the right, which again reinforces the action of now pressing to the right to initiate/control lean and path of travel.


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