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Old 06-04-2013, 06:41 AM   #601
farmerstu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valker View Post
...if any news story ever says "....when the rider lost control of the motorcycle...." it was almost always an ignorance of countersteering. Regardless of what folks say, experience without mental processing will be ultimately useless as will practice. Practice does not make perfect....practice makes permanent-good or bad.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:14 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Anyone who has miuch experience with riding instruction will tell you that there are an awful lot of riders out there who have developed, perfected, committed to muscle memory, a great many very bad riding habits. Simply going out and riding and practicing without having any idea what you are actually doing is dumb. You are more likely to be practicing the wrong things. The idea some here have been putting forth that your brain will automatically throw out the bad moves and practice the good ones is flat out false -- in real life, that doesn't happen well or consistently for most riders.
Daily avoidable motorcycle accidents prove this statement.

Deep knowledge + systematic training have made possible not only safe riding, but motorcycles, roads, fuel, oil, protective gear, ambulances, emergency rooms and all the things that the civilized world offers.

Books and intelligent good people are priceless!
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:21 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
This does make sense , but reading about it is useless. Repetition and seat time are everything. And by seat time I don't mean cruising or touring for mileage. You have to push yourself. Riding 100,000 miles of open highway isn't much of a test of ones abilities.
Nonsense. It IS possible to have both theoretical and applied knowledge in this situation. Plenty of riders with serious mileage under their belts that harbor all kinds of bullshit beliefs about the physics of their motorcycles. And even worse, these people are sometimes the most vocal when trying to give "help" to a new rider, so the cycle just repeats. All the best riders (both on track and off) that I've encountered have a solid understanding in both the mental and applied areas. And a lot of these things don't become immediately apparent to everyone simply by riding the bike. No reason to go blazing your own trail here when they are already many worn paths by knowledgeable people that have gone before and found the safest route.

I don't understand the eagerness to set up some kind of false dichotomy here, as if seat time and reading/talking/etc. are somehow mutually exclusive.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:31 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I know it's been brought up before but you do realize there are a lot of riders out there that ride and do not realize that turning the bars makes the motorcycle lean? So if they go into a corner and need to turn sharper, "lean harder" isn't going to work. They need to know in their head to turn the bars(or press on the inside grip). If they don't know that, we hear things like "the bike wouldn't make the turn".

People should never run wide off the road before they lowside the bike unless they are doing it on purpose.
While they may be thinking "lean harder," if they've been riding for a while, have built up some riding skills and know enough to look through a turn what they may actually be doing is subconsciously really turning the bars out of habit and not actually "leaning harder."
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:52 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by opmike View Post
Nonsense. It IS possible to have both theoretical and applied knowledge in this situation. Plenty of riders with serious mileage under their belts that harbor all kinds of bullshit beliefs about the physics of their motorcycles. And even worse, these people are sometimes the most vocal when trying to give "help" to a new rider, so the cycle just repeats. All the best riders (both on track and off) that I've encountered have a solid understanding in both the mental and applied areas. And a lot of these things don't become immediately apparent to everyone simply by riding the bike. No reason to go blazing your own trail here when they are already many worn paths by knowledgeable people that have gone before and found the safest route.

I don't understand the eagerness to set up some kind of false dichotomy here, as if seat time and reading/talking/etc. are somehow mutually exclusive.
Very well put.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:43 AM   #606
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While they may be thinking "lean harder," if they've been riding for a while, have built up some riding skills and know enough to look through a turn what they may actually be doing is subconsciously really turning the bars out of habit and not actually "leaning harder."
Obviously they are turning the bars, as a side effect of their leaning. Maybe leaning 5 degrees doesn't do anything for the bike. Maybe leaning past 5 degrees they start to countersteer, but whatever "leaning technique" they are using stops putting pressure on the bars past 25 degrees. Maybe the steering geometry starts to fight back pretty hard once the bike is leaned 30 degrees and leaning doesn't do jack at that point. The only thing that will dramatically turn the bike is turning the bars, I don't think one should rely on a side effect of not knowing what they're doing in order to control a dangerous machine.

How is this individual going to quickly change direction in a corner if all they know is "lean harder"? Having to move your entire upper body mass in order to press on the other bar is definitely not what I would consider being in control of a bike.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:22 AM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opmike View Post
...........I don't understand the eagerness to set up some kind of false dichotomy here, as if seat time and reading/talking/etc. are somehow mutually exclusive.
You may need to explain what those concepts mean to the books' adverse members.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:18 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
How is this individual going to quickly change direction in a corner if all they know is "lean harder"? Having to move your entire upper body mass in order to press on the other bar is definitely not what I would consider being in control of a bike.
Riddle me this - Who is right, between a person arguing that a glass is half empty, and a person who swears it is half Full?

Hint - (same answer as who is right between those that advocate more practice and seat time versus those that advocate heavy dose of chalkboard first, then ride)

Some students get A's and some get D's in every class situation, with the SAME TEACHER AND MATERIAL!!!,

Moral - No way of knowing who is ready for this info (countersteering) and when they are ready for it, too soon to an otherwise unskilled rider and he could make a great turn left that successfully avoids an obstacle, followed by high speed contact with something else due to late breaking (almost no Noob is going to have good fast multitasking ability). Every student is different, not possible to use one method for all and get the best results for all.

out

P.S. The answer to the above "Quote" is by leaning harder (that is how they perceive the countersteering that they are doing). There are only 2 types of riders, those that can turn/swerve their bike fast and effectivly, and those that cannot, and there are some in both groups that think about countersteering, and some in both groups that do not, the biggest difference is the focused practice at actually turning/swerving their bike, not what they are thinking about at the time. If you are Expert at turning a bike, you are Expert at countersteering.

LetItRoll screwed with this post 06-04-2013 at 06:39 PM
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:08 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by LetItRoll View Post
Riddle me this - Who is right, between a person arguing that a glass is half empty, and a person who swears it is half Full?

Hint - (same answer as who is right between those that advocate more practice and seat time versus those that advocate heavy dose of chalkboard first, then ride) ...
Um, no. Your example is of two people who are arguing the same thing -- the glass is the same whether you call it half empty or half full. We are arguing different things -- practice *with* informed knowledge vs. practice *without* informed knowledge.

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Old 06-05-2013, 07:09 PM   #610
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There has never EVER been a racing champion that learned to ride from a book , that's my point , blowhard.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:20 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
There has never EVER been a racing champion that learned to ride from a book , that's my point , blowhard.
I'm sure someone discussed technique with them though.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:31 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
There has never EVER been a racing champion that learned to ride from a book , that's my point , blowhard.
And a fucking stupid point it is. No one has claimed in any way that you can learn to ride from a book, you lackluster fuckwit.

How many of them have gotten there without expert advice, training, coaching, information? They don't just go out there and start doing laps and hope they happen to stumble on a better way to ride than anyone else ever. Duh.

You learn to ride well by practicing good technique. You learn what that good technique is from instruction, information, and (yes) reading. There are a lot of good books out there about riding well, and a great many riders have become much better riders by reading those books and then practicing what they read about.

You, OTOH, continue to waste your time (and everyone else's) preaching for wilful ignorance. If you spent the time you have spent here trying to persuade people that learning is useless, in learning something instead, you might be a bit smarter by now than when you entered this thread. It still wouldn't amount to much as smarts go, but it would at least have been a little step in the right direction.

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:01 PM   #613
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Do you really think someone coaches Valetino Rossi or anyone else on top. I'm not preaching ignorance , I'm preaching anti-windbag. This thread , if you still remember , was about countersteering. If you ride a bike , you countersteer , that's , end of story. Beginner or expert , there's only one way to turn a bike. You turned the thread into some long , boring , drawn out thesis where you could impress somebody with your junior college expertise. Get a life , nobody's impressed.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:01 PM   #614
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preaching for wilful ignorance.
You sure love spouting (and misspelling - see the irony?) the term willful ignorance, doncha?

Nobody has put that concept forth but you.

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:03 PM   #615
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You sure love spouting (and mispelling - see the irony?) the term willful ignorance, doncha?

Nobody has put that concept forth but you.
Yeah , he's so mad , he could just spit.
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