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Old 06-06-2013, 03:13 PM   #646
joexr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Try pressing on the handgrip. It will make you lean over further. I have a book that explains it. PM me your address. I'll send it to you.
Don't know if it'll do any good. I've been told by one of our experts here that can't read.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:38 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
I was NOT the only person saying this. You really don't have a grasp on reality , do you. Your stand at the time was countersteering had to be learned. Keep talking , you're making me look better.
Once again, you had no idea what was going on around you. I did NOT say, ever, that countersteering had to be learrned from a book. My stand at the time (and still) is that it's better and safer if you understand the concept, so that you know what it is you are physically doing, and why. So you can practice it consciously and for emergency maneuvers, so that in case of emergancy you don't do the wrong thing.

Damn, you're thick.
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Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?
Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:57 PM   #648
joexr
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Once again, you had no idea what was going on around you. I did NOT say, ever, that countersteering had to be learrned from a book. My stand at the time (and still) is that it's better and safer if you understand the concept, so that you know what it is you are physically doing, and why. So you can practice it consciously and for emergency maneuvers, so that in case of emergancy you don't do the wrong thing.

Damn, you're thick.


PhilB
You can consciously choose to practice , but it should become reflex. Tell us mere mortals how and what emergency maneuvers YOU practice. Oh and keep dreaming , you'll never know just how THICK It really is.Please stop the begging PMs.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:45 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
I , like several other people , was merely trying to say that if you're on two wheels , you are already countersteering. If anybody can go 20 feet and not fall or put their foot down , they're countersteering. But apparently this is untrue if the rider didn't read it in a book.
I think you're stretching the truth about what the other "side" of this argument are saying. I don't think anyone is denying that you have to countersteer a bike. I also don't think anyone is saying that the only way to learn it is from a book. I think what many are saying is that trying to get a good understanding of the concepts behind how a motorcycle is turned can be a valuable aid to practicing effectively.

You seem to me to be rather flip in your comments above. Just because the way you learned to ride well worked for you, doesn't mean it is the best way for everyone else. Broadly, when learning physical activities, there are two groups of people. Some seem to naturally pick up on the concepts after seeing the activity done and trying it. Others do better by understanding why things work. This is true in skiing, surfing, motorcycling, etc.

The problem comes in when people who develop an intuitive understanding tell others that is the best, or sometimes, the only, way to learn. What you wind up with is a lot of people with misinformation practicing bad habits. Look at the Dragon fail threads (both of them) for tons of pictures of people running wide. I will guarantee you that some number of those people have lots of seat time, and no understanding of how to effectively turn a motorcycle. At least some of them would have benefited from developing a better understanding of the concepts involved.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T ALSO NEED LOTS OF PRACTICE. But maybe, having the information on what to practice would help some of these people get to the point where they are spending practice time effectively, rather than wacking the tank harder with their knees, as a for instance.

So, one last question. Do you truly believe that those advocating learning some concepts, maybe even from a book, are saying that this is enough without also getting out and riding? Or if not, why are you so averse to adding books, lectures, coaching to a bag of tricks for effectively learning to ride better?

David B.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:48 PM   #650
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My point was originally that this thread was too long and too confusing to new riders. Read the OPs first post. He was confused by what he read elsewhere before starting this thread. Then throw in a bunch of anal analytical wanna be author types and it's mass confusion to a novice.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:53 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
My point was originally that this thread was too long and too confusing to new riders. Read the OPs first post. He was confused by what he read elsewhere before starting this thread. Then throw in a bunch of anal analytical wanna be author types and it's mass confusion to a novice.
Definitely right about the anal analytical wanna be authors
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:19 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
My point was originally that this thread was too long and too confusing to new riders. Read the OPs first post. He was confused by what he read elsewhere before starting this thread. Then throw in a bunch of anal analytical wanna be author types and it's mass confusion to a novice.
I think you are not giving new riders enough credit. People recognize, by and large, their own learning styles. I think I'm safe in saying you are in the learn by doing camp. No everyone is. I learned to ride a motorcycle as an adult, at around 40 years of age. I did a lot of reading, both books (Proficient Motorcyling, Twist of the Wrist, etc.) and online forums, mostly the late and lamented beginnerbikers. I had a pretty easy time figuring out who did a good job of explaining operating a bike effectively (for my needs) and who didn't. Yes, it still took (and is taking, ten years later) time to master the concepts. Yes, there's a big difference between knowing in my analytical brain that if if press (push, whatever) harder on the bars on the side I want to turn into, that the bike will continue to corner, and having the guts to make that happen rather than chickening out and running wide. For me, it helps to know that it will happen.

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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
This does make sense , but reading about it is useless. Repetition and seat time are everything. And by seat time I don't mean cruising or touring for mileage. You have to push yourself. Riding 100,000 miles of open highway isn't much of a test of ones abilities.
No, reading about it is not useless. I know I am not the only rider who used reading about it AS ONE TOOL to help me learn to be a better and safer rider.

IMO, you are being kind of arrogant to assume that what worked for you is the only way to learn. I don't see the people arguing for more analytical understanding (reading about it) saying that books and discussion are the only way to learn. None of them are arguing against practice, good practice while pushing yourself. I am pretty sure at least some of them have done track days, which is the best place to push yourself. For them, and for me when I finally get the chance and time to do a track day, having a theoretical understanding of countersteering was probably a good thing.

So, to sum it up, if you think what you are doing is protecting the n00bs (and I still count myself as one) from confusion, you are not. You are merely acting as though your way to learn is the only way, which is far from true. It's only the best way for people with your learning style.

David B.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:06 AM   #653
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What's fun is the idea that somehow folks are trying to "fix" this thread to be less confusing to new riders...

True story: for a time my oldest son worked at a DirectTV call center (college, you gotta take any work you can get). One day I asked him who were the worst customers to deal with. Without hesitation he said, "50 year old men. They think they know everything. You can't get them to start the diagnostic process because they've 'already done that' and they think the problem has to be bigger and worse than just powering down the machine or checking connections...which fixes the problem nine of ten times."

I told him if the thing ever pukes I'd have his mother call in.

Given the reaction to the topic you should be able understand why the MSF and other training providers basically avoid this topic when dealing with new riders. It's simultaneously too basic and complex at the time to deal with in depth. Hence "press in the direction you want to go."
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:20 AM   #654
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OP, go out in a vacant parking lot, git go'in 35 mph, push 'n pull on the handle bars, feel wut the bike duz.
Now you know all there is ta know 'bout counter steering in 10 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbeinct View Post
I think you're stretching the truth about what the other "side" of this argument are saying. I don't think anyone is denying that you have to countersteer a bike. I also don't think anyone is saying that the only way to learn it is from a book. I think what many are saying is that trying to get a good understanding of the concepts behind how a motorcycle is turned can be a valuable aid to practicing effectively.
OK, so we now know push'in 'n pull'in on the bars turns the bike; now wut? See'in I dun bean push'in 'n pull'in on the bars fer 4 decades, do'in everythang wrong, (butt am real lucky to be alive.) now wut exactly do we do with this new found information?
Quote:
You seem to me to be rather flip in your comments above. Just because the way you learned to ride well worked for you, doesn't mean it is the best way for everyone else. Broadly, when learning physical activities, there are two groups of people. Some seem to naturally pick up on the concepts after seeing the activity done and trying it. Others do better by understanding why things work. This is true in skiing, surfing, motorcycling, etc.

The problem comes in when people who develop an intuitive understanding tell others that is the best, or sometimes, the only, way to learn. What you wind up with is a lot of people with misinformation practicing bad habits. Look at the Dragon fail threads (both of them) for tons of pictures of people running wide. I will guarantee you that some number of those people have lots of seat time, and no understanding of how to effectively turn a motorcycle. At least some of them would have benefited from developing a better understanding of the concepts involved.
Sorry dood, but I call BS here! Now yer just make'in shit up!
Them riderz blow'in corners aren't experienced at all, theyz just posers. Posers on spotbiles, posers on over priced euro-trash bikes, 'n posers on hardleys; they ain't experienced, I can tell you that fer sure.
Quote:

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T ALSO NEED LOTS OF PRACTICE. But maybe, having the information on what to practice would help some of these people get to the point where they are spending practice time effectively, rather than wacking the tank harder with their knees, as a for instance.

So, one last question. Do you truly believe that those advocating learning some concepts, maybe even from a book, are saying that this is enough without also getting out and riding? Or if not, why are you so averse to adding books, lectures, coaching to a bag of tricks for effectively learning to ride better?

David B.
Seat time is the main thang, and if'in ya got no common sense then maybe them books 'n over priced ride'in schools are good fer ya?
I've never understood why people think Kieth Code is this great guru?
If have'in this great knowledge of counter steer'in is so valuable ta control a bike, then why didn't KC ever amount to shit as a racer? Since he knows the physics of how a bikes works, (According to y'all) he shoulda been the fastest rider ever ta walk the planet! Instead, he's just a mediocre (On a good day) club racer from here. (The AFM)

Wut I'm say'in is y'all are over complicating riding a moto, and confusing the opie and others with all yer long talk 'bout counter steer'in this, and gyroscopic force, blah, blah, blah blah, blah!
I seen many a rider come away from them over priced ride'in schools ride'in worse, cuz now theyz try'in to over think thangs, and they just confuse themselves.
To achieve mastery, ya don't gotta know how it works, just feel wut the bike duz, 'n do it.



Keep it simple 'n ride mor bishes!!!
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:24 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by BanjoBoy View Post
OP, go out in a vacant parking lot, git go'in 35 mph, push 'n pull on the handle bars, feel wut the bike duz. ... Keep it simple 'n ride mor bishes!!!
Damn. It's bad enough to be dumb; it's over the top to go out of your way to advertise it, to make an effort to look as dumb as possible.

People are strange.

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Old 06-07-2013, 08:25 AM   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbeinct View Post
I think you are not giving new riders enough credit. People recognize, by and large, their own learning styles. I think I'm safe in saying you are in the learn by doing camp. No everyone is. I learned to ride a motorcycle as an adult, at around 40 years of age. I did a lot of reading, both books (Proficient Motorcyling, Twist of the Wrist, etc.) and online forums, mostly the late and lamented beginnerbikers. I had a pretty easy time figuring out who did a good job of explaining operating a bike effectively (for my needs) and who didn't. Yes, it still took (and is taking, ten years later) time to master the concepts. Yes, there's a big difference between knowing in my analytical brain that if if press (push, whatever) harder on the bars on the side I want to turn into, that the bike will continue to corner, and having the guts to make that happen rather than chickening out and running wide. For me, it helps to know that it will happen.



No, reading about it is not useless. I know I am not the only rider who used reading about it AS ONE TOOL to help me learn to be a better and safer rider.

IMO, you are being kind of arrogant to assume that what worked for you is the only way to learn. I don't see the people arguing for more analytical understanding (reading about it) saying that books and discussion are the only way to learn. None of them are arguing against practice, good practice while pushing yourself. I am pretty sure at least some of them have done track days, which is the best place to push yourself. For them, and for me when I finally get the chance and time to do a track day, having a theoretical understanding of countersteering was probably a good thing.

So, to sum it up, if you think what you are doing is protecting the n00bs (and I still count myself as one) from confusion, you are not. You are merely acting as though your way to learn is the only way, which is far from true. It's only the best way for people with your learning style.

David B.
Very well put.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:12 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by BanjoBoy View Post
OP, go out in a vacant parking lot, git go'in 35 mph, push 'n pull on the handle bars, feel wut the bike duz.
Now you know all there is ta know 'bout counter steering in 10 seconds...

...Keep it simple 'n ride mor bishes!!!
Why do you feel the need to type in whatever dialect you think that is you're typing in? It adds nothing to the conversation.

Regarding your comments about Keith Code; many of the best coaches in many physical fields were no better than journeymen in their chosen sport. Being at the top of the heap may even lead to being a worse coach, because what came so naturally to you in your playing (or racing) days doesn't come so naturally to everyone, including some you are trying to coach. What you need to know how to do to coach is understand the principles involved in the activity you are coaching, and how to explain them to people in such a way that it allows them to improve their own technique.

David B.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:24 AM   #658
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Ok, I am one of those folks that had been riding 30+ years. Yes, I knew what counter steering is. I did not use it to my advantage until I read the previous thread about it on this site. It is a skill I have practised and made my self a MUCH better rider. It has truly saved my ass more than once. It has also increased my enjoyment of the bike.

I have been reading this thread from the beginning. I stopped for a while because all the dick waving and name calling.

While riding through the Catskills and Adirondacks last weekend, the guy with me had run wide enough on a marked 25 mph curve that he crossed the white line. Scared the chit outa me when I saw it in my mirror. I told him to learn about counter steering. I said nothing more and slowed down a little because I was the leader at the time.

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Old 06-07-2013, 12:10 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by David R View Post
Ok, I am one of those folks that had been riding 30+ years. Yes, I knew what counter steering is. I did not use it to my advantage until I read the previous thread about it on this site. It is a skill I have practised and made my self a MUCH better rider. It has truly saved my ass more than once. It has also increased my enjoyment of the bike.

I have been reading this thread from the beginning. I stopped for a while because all the dick waving and name calling.

While riding through the Catskills and Adirondacks last weekend, the guy with me had run wide enough on a marked 25 mph curve that he crossed the white line. Scared the chit outa me when I saw it in my mirror. I told him to learn about counter steering. I said nothing more and slowed down a little because I was the leader at the time.

David
Nicely done. No need to overload the student.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:04 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by davidbeinct View Post
Why do you feel the need to type in whatever dialect you think that is you're typing in? It adds nothing to the conversation.

Regarding your comments about Keith Code; many of the best coaches in many physical fields were no better than journeymen in their chosen sport. Being at the top of the heap may even lead to being a worse coach, because what came so naturally to you in your playing (or racing) days doesn't come so naturally to everyone, including some you are trying to coach. What you need to know how to do to coach is understand the principles involved in the activity you are coaching, and how to explain them to people in such a way that it allows them to improve their own technique.

David B.
How can you say a coach that understands the principle , but doesn't ride well is a good coach. How can they not ride well knowing the principle. No , most people don't know the principle , they don't need to to turn a bike. If they steer and not countersteer , they're not going ten feet. You want to understand coutersteering? Ride down a moderately curvy road with your left hand on the gas cap the whole time. You'll understand all there is to know about how countersteering works. I'll make it even simpler for the egghead , real life impaired. Lets forget about the word countersteering and just call it steering , because that's what it is on a bike , it's just done differently. You want to save your life? Get something small that you can get sideways and control it sideways . That's what's going to save your life , through avoidance. I have taught people to ride and I've taught people to ride hard and I've taught a couple to be faster than myself. You can't learn control if you don't know what out of control is. WOULD I STEER YOU WRONG.
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